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The Divorced Dadvocate: Divorce Support For Dads
Dads face unique issues during and after divorce. We identify and address the issues relevant to divorced/divorcing dads and create an action plan to survive and thrive!
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The Divorced Dadvocate: Divorce Support For Dads
261 - Mediation Mastery: The Art of Peaceful Divorce
Imagine ending your marriage without destroying your family. That's the promise of divorce mediation when done right, and few know this process better than Joe Dillon.
Having watched his parents' bitter litigation end with the last time he ever saw his father at age 15, Dillon transformed personal pain into professional purpose. Now, with a remarkable 98% success rate (far above the industry average of 70%), he shares exactly how couples can navigate divorce with dignity, financial clarity, and preserved relationships.
Joe's Website: https://www.equitablemediation.com/
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Music credit: Akira the Don
Hello and welcome to the show. Thank you so much for listening. Today We've got an important topic that I realized that I have neglected to do any kind of episode or really education or sharing on in the five years that we've been recording this podcast, and so my guest today reached out to me and it clicked in my head and it was a natural to get together and chat with him. But before I introduce him, I want to remind you to go to thedivorcedadvocatecom and check out all the resources that we have there so that you can get the help that you deserve and need. We've got everything from free to paid resources. Wherever you're at in your divorce whether you're just contemplating or post-divorce we've got something that can help you out there. So check it out at thedivorcedadvocatecom.
Speaker 1:My guest today is a trailblazer in divorce mediation. He's helping couples end their marriages with dignity and financial clarity for over 17 years as co-founder of Equitable Mediation Services. He brings an MBA in finance and advanced training from Harvard, mit and Northwestern to guide couples toward fair, lasting agreements that protect both emotional well-being and financial stability agreements that protect both emotional well-being and financial stability. He launched virtual divorce mediation in 2011, nearly a decade before it became the norm during the pandemic. The results speak for themselves. Equitable Mediation Services has a 98% case resolution rate, which is remarkable, and is far above the industry average of 70%.
Speaker 2:Please help me in welcoming Joe Dillon, thanks for having me, jude, very excited to be here.
Speaker 1:Joe, thanks for reaching out. Like I mentioned, I have been remiss in not really diving into this. I think we've talked about positives of mediation and finding an attorney and everything else mediation and finding an attorney and like everything else but we haven't really dove into mediation and the positives and the negatives and how you get a 98% case resolution. I think I was telling you right before we started recording I've been in mediation six or seven times and I'm old for six or seven, so I'm really curious to know how you got to that too. But before we jump into some of that, just share a little bit about, for 17 years now, why you keep showing up to arguing couples every single day and helping them to figure out what they've got going on.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's a great question. So a little bit about me. My parents litigated their divorce, so a therapist would probably have a field day with me. My parents litigated their divorce, so you know, a therapist would probably have a field day with me because they're like well, dude, this is totally why you do this. But you know they litigated this back in the 80s and you know this was before really mediation was a thing, and so we started.
Speaker 2:I started thinking about it. Right, it's like they fought for years, they spent so much money and then, literally the last time I saw my father, I was 15 years old. I was sitting in the back of a courtroom in the hallway. My parents were like still yelling at each other in the hallway. My dad walked out of the courtroom and that was literally the last time I saw him or spoke to him again. And then, about five years ago, I got a letter saying he had died and so that was it.
Speaker 2:And when you look at that, when you think about that as dads, dads are important role models and they're important players in kids' lives, and to not have a dad in my life my mom, of course, did a great job, did the best she could, but there's roles that dads play that are really critically important and I just wish that they to not have a dad in my life.
Speaker 2:My mom, of course, did a great job, did the best she could, but there's roles that dads play that are really critically important and I just wish that they could have put the lawyers aside, talk to each other as people, like directly, because I was sitting right there, by the way, and said you know what do we have to do?
Speaker 2:That's in the best interest of this kid here, because I'm an only child. So every time when I get, as you said, I get into the room and I get into the space. I think to myself I want to help couples avoid what happened to me, right, I want them. I say look, you are not going to be husband and wife anymore, but you're always going to be mom and dad, and that is a role that will not change. So I think that's what keeps me showing up every single day knowing that there are families out there who are still at the birthday parties together, still sitting at each other at the graduations, can be at the wedding together. I didn't have any of that, so you know, I feel like I really missed out, and so that's really the deep answer. I hope that's not too deep for the audience.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, well, I think that adds some some credibility is uh as as well to that. It's uh, it's obviously uh sad that that that's what has happened, but I think that many of the dads that are listening can relate to to some of that. One of the things.
Speaker 1:I have noticed in doing this work for so long now, that some of this stuff is generational right. So my parents were divorced, my parents' parents were divorced as well, and it seems to be a thing that gets carried on, unless there is a mindset, like you just mentioned, which is, hey, we need to reframe this, as we might not be together, but we're going to be parents and we need and we need to be looking, uh, at this, uh, from a different perspective, which uh if somebody is healthy and is in a healthy mindset, doesn't have mental, emotional challenges going on or something else, then uh, then mediation probably is, uh is something that's positive.
Speaker 1:So share with us then why that mediation is positive and maybe some misconceptions around mediation and going to mediation.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So I think the thing that for me with mediation is that think about when you have a lawyer, right? So two sides have a lawyer and the lawyers are communicating, and it's this sort of like faceless interaction. Right, you're not seeing that you're hurting the other person? Supposedly, this was a person that you at some point in your life pledged your undying love to, right? So even at a bare minimum right, you'd want to treat this person like a human. And because of the adversarial nature of the legal system, the lawyer is hired to win for their client, right, and they don't care if they hurt on the other side, as long as I win, I get the best settlement, and that's happening from both sides.
Speaker 2:Mediation removes that and puts the two people face to face, and I think that's really what the key is is that it's sort of like I'll say this to you, right, we both have websites, and if you had, say, a commenting section that was unmoderated on your website, it's real easy for somebody who doesn't have to register to come in and make some snarky comment, right, and then just ascend and walk away. But if I had to look at you and give you my name, my address, my phone number a photo of myself. It would be a lot harder for me to do that right. And mediation is the same way. If I'm sitting across from you, it's a lot harder to yell, to be mean, to call names and, quite frankly, to try to like I don't want to say pull one over on the other person.
Speaker 2:But you know, if you're staring at somebody and the other person looks at you and goes, come on, really Really, you can't good faith. Like you said, you have to have the mental acuity, of course, but you can't good faith say, oh yeah, absolutely, that's true. Oh yeah, I was like, yeah, you're right, I'm kind of being a jerk. So it takes a lot of the air out of the balloon, a lot of the emotions, and by doing that negotiation direct you can clear up a lot of misconceptions, get people to treat each other like humans and I really think that takes the temperature down and it's really, to me, the key to the whole process.
Speaker 1:Right. So do you require couples to sit in the same room while they are mediating? Couples to sit in the same room while they are mediating, or now you do it, now you're doing it virtually, right, uh, and I guess the along that same concept. Do they have to be face to face with each other, or do you? Because I've been in mediation both ways, right, yeah, yeah, so I'm always of the mind.
Speaker 2:So what you're referring to. There's two kinds of mediation, right? So the kind of mediation I do, everybody's in the room quote, unquote. Right Now, if you're on one Zoom and the other person's on a different Zoom, sure, no problem. We're each in our own separate video feeds, but I'm always working one on two.
Speaker 2:There are some mediators who work in a fashion that's known as shuttle mediation, like the mediator shuttles back and forth between the rooms, right? I find that kind of breeds mistrust, because one party is sitting there now just waiting, right, and what are you thinking? What's that mediator saying to my husband or my wife or you know? And so if you're all in the room, like, think about when you were a little kid, right, how rumors got started, and that you know the game of telephone or whatever it is Like, if you're all together, you can clear up that rumor real quick. But if somebody goes into a different room, says something, they come back. Even as a practitioner, let's just be quite honest, right, this is a hard enough job without me having to remember what one person said, told me, told me what I can't tell the other person, right, and I'm just like I'm not going to do that right. So you get everybody in the same room. It makes the conversation go a lot better, clarifies any issues and it really does like I said it reduces that conflict.
Speaker 1:Okay, so do you feel like that is one of the reasons why you might have a much higher success rate? Because I think probably the majority of times and this was by request of my ex, probably the majority of times and this was by request of my ex we were in separate rooms, and even when we did virtual mediation we were in separate rooms so she would never, ever have to look at me, never have to be directly communicating with me. Do you feel like that is one of the reasons that you have such a high success rate?
Speaker 2:I think so. I think having people one-on-two, even if they're, say, for example, taking the Zoom call from a separate room, obviously there's power dynamics in relationships, right? So some people are comfortable sitting next to each other, some people aren't and they want to be able to speak up, and so if that means you're in the bedroom and you're in the you know guest room or whatever it is on Zoom, fine. But I do think that leads to that, because it does really, like I said, it takes the temperature down, clarifies a lot of issues and also, let's be honest, right, you know, without being coy about it, this is not the most fun someone has ever had.
Speaker 2:Right, getting a divorce. Do you really want this process to drag on for years and years? No, you want to move through the process in a structured and organized fashion, right, it's not like you want to sound like oh, this is a business transaction and we're going to move you through, but you don't want it to drag on, like my parents, it was like three years. It's like what are you doing? You know who is benefiting from this Lawyers, right? That's who's benefiting from this. Are you getting on with your life? No, am I getting on with my life as your child, no, you know.
Speaker 2:So, again, that also expedites the conversation. It gets people to move through the process faster, come to a conclusion and like, say this guy to guy here it's like I'm half Irish, half Italian, so I'm very stoic. I was like don't worry about it, suppress your feelings. That's how I was raised and a lot of guys don't realize that there's going to be this emotional avalanche at the end that they need to let happen and they need to welcome it. And the sooner they get there, the sooner they can have the breakdown, rebuild and move forward Right, and that's really what my goal is to try to help them do that.
Speaker 1:Right. Well, so you? So you bring up a good point which are there are a lot of emotions that come up in this process Finances is probably one of the biggest ones that people get obviously wrapped around the axle, if you will, on. How do you manage that when you're in the process, when you're in that, and when those emotions start to get whether they get heated or whether they get sad or fearful, I think probably, if you really want to do a psychoanalysis of it, which we're not going to do today it comes down to fear on both sides Fear I'm not going to have enough, fear I'm not going to be able to provide it whatever it is. But how do you manage that?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So, as you know, I have an MBA in finance, and so I bring this kind of financial perspective to it, because you're absolutely right. Think about the topics in a divorce parenting, child support, alimony, property division. Three of the four are financial right and, by the way, in most of the states we practice in, the parenting plan is an input into the calculation child support. So I'll call three and a half right. And so, going back to what we were talking about before, about looking someone in the eye and being able to say to them something serious and have them take you serious.
Speaker 2:What I like to do is I have this process that I've developed, and so I first start people out by preparing these budgets, and so these are budget workbooks of my own design. We do a joint budget, and that shows me what your marital lifestyle looks like. So what that does is it says look, guys, are you living at your means, below your means or beyond your means? Because guess what, as soon as you separate households, life's going to get more expensive. And if you were going into credit card debt while you're living together, there's no extra money hiding around for extra alimony or child support, right? So we level that playing field first. Then we get the apart budgets and we say look, here's your lives comparatively post-divorce. Is it fair that this person's sleeping on his friend's couch in the basement while this person is still staying in the house? Right, look at the numbers this person's spending I don't know $7,000 a month. This one's trying to spend $1,500. Is that really fair? Is that good for your kids? Does your kids want to visit dad in the friend's basement? You know like you know. So you have that first conversation, a level set to say, look, this is what we've got financially right. There's no lies here. Here it all is financially right. There's no lies here. Here it all is. So that's the first thing that we do right, and so that certainly helps.
Speaker 2:Then, from there, the second thing that happens is we do a balance sheet and we put all the assets and liabilities out on the table. Because what I've found is a lot of people like to talk about stuff piecemeal and what they do is they pick one thing, like the house or the car, or the 401k or whatever, and they just go after it. And I'm like, guys, this is like a big, you got to look at the whole picture right. And so when we get it all out on the table, it's like, well, here's all the statements, right? Because I asked him to give me copies of the statement. Here's a spreadsheet with all your assets and liabilities there is no money hiding in a bank account. Spreadsheet with all your assets and liabilities there is no money hiding in a bank account. Here's all the credit reports. Here's all the research we did on all your open accounts, right?
Speaker 2:And so what you see is I'm trying to do is I'm removing the emotions before we make decisions. So I like to say do the discovery before the deciding. And as guys I am Mr Guilty of this I am a solutions-oriented guy. I want to fix the problem right away. I go right into solutions mode. What you need to do is you need to go into research, step back, lay it all out, then you can have the conversation. So that's how we approach it Take those emotions out so the conversations can be more productive.
Speaker 1:Right, well, so those are two things already that I can tell that, at least in my experience, has not happened is being face to face, right, because that does humanize it and does make it different.
Speaker 1:And then what you're talking about, with that preparation up front and having full financial picture, knowing everything that's going on. I think you said pulling credit, pulling credit reports too, so you can see what's what. That's something that I've never heard of, and I think that's a brilliant idea, because, right, because then that, then that's uh, that uh puts to rest any mistrust or anything or any ability to lie about uh, anything, uh period, if you've got that and you're able to trade that and look at that and know.
Speaker 1:Hey, this is what it is. There's no money here. This is what we're dealing with. It sounds like you do a lot more upfront preparation with the couples before scheduling and having them show up so that there's more there's, there's, there's more to, to going on, which I think is, I mean, that's brilliant.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that, that can um do you do you so?
Speaker 1:how do you get so? One of the things that that I run into the most is when one party just doesn't have a realistic expectation when they're coming into mediation. Of course it happens all the time. It doesn't really matter who it is, whether it's the man or the woman, but one party seems to just not have a realistic expectation oftentimes. How do you move past that then when somebody shows up, even if you have all of the documentation and the credit reports and your spreadsheet developed in your MBA program?
Speaker 2:and everything else, and then somebody right.
Speaker 1:And and and. But the one person that showed up thinking, because most of us don't check the statutes, like you mentioned, the child support is going to be tied to the number of uh, number of nights, et cetera, that you have in a parenting plan. So so one person has not done the work, doesn't know the statutes, doesn't understand. Have this maybe misconception that their life is going to be the same post-divorce, if not better?
Speaker 2:post-divorce.
Speaker 1:But they're going to maintain exactly the same lifestyle with two households now, which makes no sense. But again, we're not thinking logically oftentimes through this process. How do you mitigate that when there's one person? That just is completely unrealistic.
Speaker 2:Yeah, great question, and that does happen frequently. So the way I handle it, there's two parts to that. The first we've already talked about are those budgets, right. So what we do is, when we do the joint budget, let's just use some silly round numbers. Let's say, a couple living together spends $5,000 a month on their living expenses, right, their house and their car and their groceries and whatever. And then when we take their apart budgets and we review them and we add them together, one person is spending 4,000 and the other one's spending $3,500, right. And so I say, okay, folks, $5,000 together, $7,500 apart, $2,500 is the cost of divorce. Right, that's the phrase I use. Okay, so that's what it's going to cost you guys every month to be divorced. So, $2,500 times 12, whatever. That math is right. $30,000. I did some math, right? Yeah, yeah, okay, guys, let me ask you guys a question Do you have $30,000 lying around right now? Do you put $30,000 a year away in the bank? And most people will be like no. I said, okay, where's that coming from? Right? So we first established that there's going to be a challenge, right.
Speaker 2:Then the second thing we do and this is a great thing for your listeners to remember, this is kind of negotiation technique, is you say, here's a great question? So this is what I want everybody to hear. Help me understand, right, when you say you, you do this, you don't get it, it's like, well, the person's taking that as an attack and of course, they're going to only entrench in their position. Okay, you want $5,000 a month in alimony? Okay, help me understand how I can pay that to you. If I can do it, I'm really willing to listen.
Speaker 2:And now the person, instead of you proving their point, they have to prove their own point, and what I've noticed is a lot of people really, what it does is it paints them into a corner to reality check themselves, right. And then all of a sudden they go well, yeah, you only bring home $4,500 a month, I guess I'm not getting 5,000 an hour money. And the other person goes right, you know. And then there's like a moment right, you're always, as a mediator, looking for those moments where somebody's like has a little bit of empathy for the other person, and so that's how we do it. And I say like, hey, listen, I'm all ears. Right, I'm neutral, I don't have a horse in this race, but help me understand how that's possible.
Speaker 2:And then a lot of people, when they start talking it through and trying to explain it and trying to figure it out, they usually can't. And even if they say, I don't care, that's what I want. Then the third option, which is what I prefer not to get to, is you say, okay, let's do that, let's take a look at what it would be like if I pay you $5,000 a month. Here's my budget. Right? Take a look at my budget. Do you agree? My budget is correct. Yeah, I spend $4,000 a month. Yeah, I bring home 5,000 a month.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so how do I pay my?
Speaker 2:bills, right. And then again you're you're trying to get the other person to say you know what? That doesn't make sense. Because if you tell them in their head it makes sense. But you do everything you can to just like we were talking about that discovery, put everything onto the table and let them come to that conclusion. Right, and because I believe in my heart of hearts that most people are rational actors, right, most people are reasonable. It's the circumstances that wind you up. Right, you know, somebody cuts you off in traffic, I'm not a maniac, but if somebody cuts me off suddenly, I am right. And same thing in these situations. So in those examples, what you're always trying to do is sure, I'm listening, I'm willing, as the recipient of that request, I'm willing to give it a shot. Help me understand how that's possible. Let's talk about it. And then you stay quiet and you let the other person try to explain themselves. That's how you do it Make sense.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, that's terrific and I like that no-transcript Because, like what you just described as guys, naturally we want a problem solved and we want to figure this out. And I've worked with enough guys, and you probably have too. Like we probably have come to this mediation with a plan A, b.
Speaker 1:C and D come to this mediation with a plan a, b, c and d and most of our minds of like what we can do, what we can't do, what we'd like to do, what we're like, all these different, different scenarios that that we can try to to work out.
Speaker 1:And I tell you, I coach some guys that literally show up with the spreadsheets of those three, four or five different scenarios how you're going to go through it, which I have respect for and I and I and I and I do appreciate that, but but that's a great, great question. So so I've got these five options, so help me understand which one's going to work for you or whatever, the whatever, whatever the situation is. I like that a lot. So I'm curious, though, because there is a segment of the population and, unfortunately, guys that tune into this show and come to the community, deal with people that have some significant mental, emotional issues, maybe personality disorders. That's maybe five to 10 percent of the entire population out there. Right, how do you work through something that? And how do you get to 93% success rates If you're working with folks that some might just have a different reality, because personality disorder is essentially somebody has a different reality than yours, different reality of the world, et cetera.
Speaker 1:I'm not a clinical psychologist or anything.
Speaker 1:That's just kind of generally, and you've, you've, you've done enough of this to know they, they just don't have a, they don't have a the reality of what's going on. They have a different, a different reality of what's going on. How do you, how do you work through some of that stuff and what suggestions do you have for any of the guys that might be dealing with somebody in this that really, really wants to try to come to some settlement, some amicable way to get through this process. Because what I've found and this is probably generally in both sides right is the guys that come to our community that might be dealing with somebody like this are genuinely dads that want to figure something out that you know just got into a marriage that's just untenable anymore and they're trying to find and mediation would be great because they know they're going to save money, it's going to be easier on the kids, all the reasons that you described before but it's just somebody that they're stuck in, this person, stuck in their reality. That is not the reality, right, yeah absolutely so.
Speaker 2:The good news is right a lot of people, I think, they forget, really, what happens to you is. They forget that there's steps in the process. Right, there's gradations you can take. You don't have to pull the pin out of the grenade and go right to court. Right, and mediation is always a great first step. Right, you're going to mediate, you're going to try to mediate, and as we were talking about before we jumped on here, is that a lot of states these days have mandatory mediation anyway. So what I remind people is you're going to either see me now or you're going to see somebody like me later, and the chances are the person you're going to see later is going to be appointed by the court or might not have the experience that, say, someone like me in private mediation has. So your always best bet is to try mediation first. Now I will tell you that there are people who come to us and I want to be very honest with them and we have a first meeting, an initial meeting, and I'll say you know what folks. I don't think mediation is the right thing for you because of, for example, what you said.
Speaker 2:However, there is an alternative to pulling the pin out of the grenade and it's called collaborative divorce. And so how that works is you're all in the same room and in this situation, it's you and your attorney, your spouse and their attorney, and then a relevant professional. And, again, you know poking fun at ourselves as guys. You know, especially me, I'm an only child. I'm always that I can do it myself, I don't need any help, right, and we're always kind of just, you know being on the brave face. And well, in this case, you have this room where there's the protection of the attorney. It's a neutral, you know neutral setting, and then you can bring in a mental health professional or a child psychologist or some other qualified, you know what we might call fifth party, who. They're not a mediator, right, but they're there to provide that kind of support and to be able to explain to the individual, who perhaps might not be on the same plane as the other person, what's going on, understanding how it's impacting them, getting them to understand how compromise works and what they need to do and what's in the best interest of the kids.
Speaker 2:So, even if you can't mediate, I'm a fan of then saying go to collaborative divorce, get those people in the room Because, look, I can tell you, some of my best friends are attorneys right, and like you and I were just talking about my background's finance. I am not a mental health professional. You don't want me as your mental health professional. I'm woefully unqualified, and most of my attorney friends will say the same thing. So they say, look, let's get somebody in the room, neutral, both sides can pick so that they can bridge that gap, and I find that that helps a lot. That's a key thing. So if your listeners are in a situation where they're thinking, I don't know if my spouse is able to have a good faith negotiation or to understand fully what's happening, try collaborative divorce. This way, you each have attorneys, you have other professionals that can support you, and it avoids you from having to wind up in a courtroom Not as cost-effective as mediation, of course, but far more cost-effective than litigation, right? So that's what I would say.
Speaker 1:So have you found that couples that may not be successful in mediation do have success in collaborative divorces.
Speaker 2:You know, I don't know for sure, only because sometimes, like I said, we're lucky We've had I can count on one hand the number of clients that have not been able to come to agreement with us, so I can't speak definitively about what happens. But the clients that probably we are unable to help should not have been mediation clients in the first place. Right, they were not being truthful up front and hiding something, some assets or some other situation, right? But I do think they can be if I, as a professional, had to make that regard.
Speaker 2:Because what's nice about mediation is you can take what you've done, and a lot of times in my experience it's usually a handful of issues, one or two issues that are the sticking point, so you don't need to start again. Take what you've done in mediation, bring it to a collaborative process, say, look, we agree on these 95 things, we need help with these five, and then at least you're not starting from scratch, right, and that I think that's how you would succeed. Now if somebody goes into mediation and says this is ridiculous, I don't agree to any of this, I'm getting a lawyer and I'm going to burn this thing to the ground, yeah, then I don't know what's going to happen. But if you get the people who just have that one or two sticking point that they just can't get past and for some reason we can't get them past it then that's what I would say you go to collaborative, you use that process to just finish the rest of it and then you're on your way, you know.
Speaker 1:Got it? Yeah, I asked because it seems to me and this is just anecdotal and subjective that the couples that have not been successful in mediation have less of an opportunity or are less prepared to be mediation successful and collaborative divorce, because collaborative is truly collaborative and if you're mediating and you're doing mediation in the the spirit, the correct, spirit.
Speaker 1:That's the key mediation you are, you are collaborating right and, and, and part of collaboration is having to uh come to consensus.
Speaker 1:You're having to to give and take, you're having to uh to resolve such like all kinds of things.
Speaker 1:That is collaborative, and if they haven't been able to get it done in mediation, I've found that typically they're not able to get it done in a collaborative type situation, and maybe it's just because collaborative divorce has not become as prevalent as as regular divorce is yet. Hopefully that's starting to change and there's maybe more people thinking about doing it or having some success through it, because I truly think that it's like you said. It's the next step up from from from mediation. Right, if you need to bring other people in, you need to to to have uh more the way, the way that, the way that I describe the differences and and and correct me if I'm wrong is if, going back to that, if somebody have an unrealistic expectation around things, you have somebody that's there to help educate them on the process, maybe, or the realities of stuff that you talked about bringing mental health professionals in or finance professionals in real estate professionals, whatever that will help them to say look, this is what the lay of the land is.
Speaker 1:These are your options. You might have one, two, three, four, five options, but actually, realistically it's going to be one or two.
Speaker 1:The other ones are just you can go, you can argue it in court, but probably 95 percent it's going to get. Three of those five are going to get thrown out and you're not going to have any choice. Not going to have any choice, Right? So it seems to be um, whereas mediation is not, as you're not spending weeks, months in going through that process. You're spending hours, and it's more inclined to people that are are going to actually just get something done.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Right, you know, and you brought up a great point before is that you have. It's a mindset, right? Um, you know, there's a, there's a quote, and I think it's Henry Ford. It's like if you think you can or you think you can't, you're right.
Speaker 1:I love that Right yeah.
Speaker 2:And it's like, because, if you come to mediation going, this isn't going to work, well, guess what, it's not going to work, right. But at the end of the day, if you say and you know this from experience I know this from experience as as a child is that when you enter the legal system, all bets are off and you just are, now you're rolling those dice, you're not even rolling them, a stranger is rolling them for you, right, and you're like instead, in mediation, you control the outcome. Now, granted, could you have gotten more? Could you have paid less if I litigated? Yeah, maybe you could, right, have gotten more. Could you have paid less if I litigated? Yeah, maybe you could, right.
Speaker 2:But what's worth it? Is it worth the $50,000, $75,000, $100,000 you spent on a litigated divorce? Is it worth the years of your life that you could have been playing catch with your son or going to dance recitals? Right, it's like you're going to be in courtrooms Sometimes. You just have to let it go and you have to just say, well, that's terrible, that's not what I wanted, but you know what? It was worth it for my emotional wellbeing, right? Because guess what? We've talked a lot about finances and all of those things. But the biggest price someone pays is an emotional one. Right, your money comes and goes right. We all lose jobs. We get jobs, we make bad investments, we spend too much on a bar tab or whatever. It is right, but at the end of the day, the only thing you got left is your emotional peace of mind. Right, and that's priceless.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, to the dads listening as far as what to look for in a mediator Like what kind of questions to ask a mediator Because, uh, you find a lot of the guys will say, hey, yeah, we're going to, we're going to try mediation first. We're going to find them private mediator first, not a, not a court appointed mediator, which I agree with you. I think that there's a distinct difference in their abilities to get that done and to get something done between a court-appointed mediator and a private mediator. You guys have to have success. Well, you don't have to have success.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you kind of do right, but your success breeds more business, which you know you want to continue to feed your family. Then you want to be successful.
Speaker 2:Right, so that's right.
Speaker 1:Which you know, and you've got my mind going just a ton.
Speaker 1:Because, like I, said I've been through it six or seven times have never had success, had success. I think I feel like part of that might be just generally, the mediator population that we have here because it is court ordered, and how good or bad they actually are here, and so I'm in Colorado, but also I would contend that this probably is true in some other states or areas where they require that they might not have the level of skill that someone like you or mediators in other areas have, which is going to lead to failure and when that failure happens, okay. So I was going to ask you another question. I'm going to, I'm going to shift a little bit here. So when that? When that failure happens, it it? The challenge I have with with doing the mediation without being prepared, like you described, is that it it starts everything off poorly, of course. So if you get into a bad mediation and somebody's not realizing whatever reason it fails, it seems to set things back as opposed to starting off on the wrong foot.
Speaker 1:So actually I can dovetail this into the question I was going to ask. So what can the dads look for in a mediator? What kind of questions can they ask the mediator before getting into the process and deciding on starting out with the mediation process?
Speaker 2:Perfect, I'll give you some great questions to ask. So the first thing I would ask is explain to me your mediation process, right? We've been talking about this a lot, and having a process is key. Imagine if you know, I'm a big baseball fan, right? Imagine if you just put nine guys out on a field and said play a game. What's the first thing they would ask? Well, what are the rules? Where do I go? Where do I stand? Who does what? Right? You want to know. You need a framework by which to operate with it. Right? That's actually what the Colorado Rockies do here?
Speaker 1:I just went to the game last night. That's why they've only won 12 games this year.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm sorry about that and I'm a big Cubs fan, so sorry about the whole Chris Bryant thing, so you can blame me for that. But I would ask you what's your process look like? Do you even have one? Because, as we've talked about, if you don't have a process, things can spiral pretty quickly. So that's question number one. Number two what's your case resolution rate? You got to be hitting at least 70%. That's industry average. That's a C. If you're getting into 80, you're getting into 90, that's solid, right, that's good. So what's your case resolution rate? What's your training look like? That's the third question. So what I would say to your listeners and this is terrifying for a professional like myself is if, jude, you decided one day you know what I talked to that Joe Dillon guy he seemed pretty cool I'm going to take this 40 hour mediation class at the holiday inn this weekend and I'm going to get myself a business card. That is literally all you need to do to become a mediator in most states, right? So 40?
Speaker 2:hour course, like wow, right, that's just terrifying. And so what kind of training, continuing education, do they continue to do to stay on top of trends? Because, as you know, the laws change every year, right? So what's their training? What's that? You know, what does that look like for them? Did they just take the 40 hour course or do they, you know, continue to to take additional training?
Speaker 2:Right, and then I'd also talk to them about their fee structure, because here's another thing that we do, so we're pretty unique in the sense. Another thing that we do. So we're pretty unique in the sense we offer a flat fee and people can have as many sessions as they like within this timeframe. Right, we call it this mediation roadmap. So, in effect, what we're doing is we're putting our professional reputation on the line and saying this sounds like a game show, almost in a weird way.
Speaker 2:Right, I can get your divorce negotiated within this period of time for this price, and if it goes, you know, then it's on me if I screw up, right? And so when you're billing hourly, there's no incentive for that professional to resolve your issues. I mean, that's the model. That's okay, I get it, that used to be the model, but that's broken. You know, I don't's broken, I'm not an ATM, right and so I want to know how long is it going to take, how much is it going to cost, what am I going to get? And so we tell people that right up front. And if somebody can't tell you that, if they're not confident, that says look, and this is where we get to say we say between 10 and 14 weeks you could finish your whole divorce mediation. Now not the court process, right, because you're at the mercy of the courts and filing it and all.
Speaker 2:But you can get your whole substantive agreement negotiated within this time period, I can give you a 98% chance that that's going to happen. If I said to you hey, jude, you play the lottery, I got a 98% shot of winning Would you play? Of course you would. I'm saying to you, I'm even putting it on me, saying that if you need two sessions four, six, eight we're making progress. You're still paying the same price. That's on me. I'm willing to do that. I think if that combination of your training, your process, your fee structure, your professional societies that you belong to, your engagement, you know, all of those things kind of come into play, you know and you know, I can tell you from experience a lot of times, people. One thing I would not concern myself with are online reviews, because in a divorce.
Speaker 2:First of all, who's going out publicly and saying that was awesome?
Speaker 1:right, that's the best divorce ever.
Speaker 2:I love that guy, joe Nolan, he's great. You know they're not doing that, and the ones that are are mad. They're angry about something. We have like three reviews somewhere in Google, I think right. But we, you know, we do ask people to fill out an anonymous survey after they're done with us and we pull quotes from it, and so someone else should also be able to say look, I can't give you referrals or references, right? Hey Jude, I got your phone number from my mediator. Can I talk to you about your divorce? You'd be like what.
Speaker 2:They should be able to at least say look, here's a smattering of feedback we've gotten and here are the things that people mentioned and you'll notice patterns, right. So I think that's really what I would say those questions, and to avoid online reviews, because really they're just really not accurate these days when it comes to this topic. So I hope that helps.
Speaker 1:Okay, what about people that are in states or areas where there is court order mediation? Would a question like what percentage of your business is court appointed, what percentage of your business is attorney referred and what percentage of your business is private, uh, would that be a good question to ask too, because I gotta tell you like I, I, you know the phrase, you don't know what you don't know, I, I, I feel like that and talking to you now in just this 45 minutes that that we spent together, that you've you've raised a whole bunch of new questions, but of things that could help everybody in general if they knew this.
Speaker 1:But the guys that are listening to have some more success up front with a mediator, right, because what you've described has not ever been an experience that I've had in the six or seven times that I've been. I've literally had mediators after the, after the, you know the one the shuttle back and forth after one room and a half hour say we're probably not going to get anything done and then you know you paid your.
Speaker 1:You paid your minimum, and, and, and, frankly, I was just happy that you know. I paid my minimum two hours and I wasn't going to pay another six hours, and even if they only worked a half hour, I was happy that I caught my losses. So, but that's the experience that I've had and, until and unless I've had an experience that was better than that, which is what you've been described to me, I didn't know, I don't know any better.
Speaker 2:I think a lot of us don't know any better.
Speaker 1:I think a lot of us don't know any better and I think I really feel, while mediation is a is a great idea, it's just like having a bad plumber right If they could just make things worse.
Speaker 2:And they show up and they're crappy right.
Speaker 1:So if you, if you're trying to have good intentions and getting into media and then you have a terrible experience, it just sets things back, like I said. So I think another question in addition to what is your process? I think that's a great question what's your case resolution rate? I would love I'm going to start asking that all this time now, uh, uh, because I don't know that any of them keep that. I have not seen that.
Speaker 1:I would think that every mediator would want to have that as a benchmark, like in all of their advertising yeah 90, 98, like if, unless they're not successful well yeah, unless they're doing the shuttle back and forth and I'm done in a half hour it's just not going to work out today scenario right One of those lines to make a comment about that is.
Speaker 2:You know, you may see it on my website. So my wife, cheryl, she's a divorce coach and she's my partner in this right, so she helps some of our clients as well. She helps some of our clients as well. And if your case resolution rate isn't high, you're in the wrong line of work. Because the bottom line is I'm a divorce mediator on my business card, right, but the truth of the matter is I'm a problem solver, right.
Speaker 2:And if I'm not willing to get in the arena and say, guys, we got to figure this out, right, like, and really care about it, right, you really need to care about this, like you. You were saying to me right at the beginning of the show, like, why do you keep doing this? It's because I actually give a. You know about it. Right, it's like because I've seen the other side of the coin. I can't tell you what to do, but, man, you just don't want what happened to me. You just don't want the alternative. Trust me on this, just hang with me. It's going to be hard, but we can do this right. And I've come after a day and she's like how are you doing? I'm like I just got to sit quietly downstairs and pet the dog. It takes a lot out of you but you have to care, and I think that's a lot too, you know.
Speaker 2:Another question I would I would have your folks ask is is this your full-time profession? That's another good question. Do you mediate full-time? Because, um, I don't know, I don't know if I mentioned this. So when I was in, I was living in Chicago and I was uh kind of teaching at Northwestern university. I was like an assistant to the people who were teaching the mediation classes, and a lot of the people who came in there were mental health professionals, marriage counselors and they thought well, you know, I'm already seeing couples in trouble, so I'll become a divorce mediator as well.
Speaker 2:It's like you just said. Imagine if the plumber showed up at your house and gave you a business card and said hey, by the way, in addition to plumbing, I also repair carburetors and I also paint bedrooms and I also do needlepoint, you know, and you'd be like, are you really qualified as a plumber? Right? So you probably want to find out. Does this person practice some kind of conflict resolution full time? Because this is a skill, right? Mediation is a skill and it needs to be honed and sharpened and continued, and so that's another good question.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think that's a great question. Only challenge is that if they get all their business like, they're not in the wrong business, if they're getting automatic business right, if they're getting automatic business from the court, they're just and they're mailing it in. That's where you got to ask well, what percentage of your business, how much business I? And I'd be curious because so much as you, as you know, because you you deal with different parts of the country, so so much of the family law court is a cottage industry where the attorneys know the mediators know the mental health professionals know the finance, and then they're just all working together.
Speaker 1:They know the judges because they went to law school with them and they practiced for a while and then they got on the bench and then they're not going to piss them off and they're not going to really argue for their client, because they don't want to piss the judge off, because they're going to have to see them again.
Speaker 1:They're not going to piss off opposing counsel either because they're going to have to see them again and talk to them. So this is a whole cottage industry thing. So which again, when I'm coaching guys right, and I firmly believe that every person now I didn't when I started this I was like, yeah, coaching would be good for you. I think that every person going through divorce should have it I absolutely agree 100% now all the time.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah yeah, but you know that they should, so that they can know and that they can understand this whole process and what goes on in that question of what percentage of the business do you have to go out and you actually have to get yourself, I think, in, especially in the States where it's court ordered is a fantastic and full-time. Do you do this full-time? Do you feed your family?
Speaker 1:doing this and if you're committed to it, if you are right and if you do what percentage of that is private, that you work with couples outside of the court, what percentage of that is attorneys that you know, that you've networked with, and what percentage is court ordered. And then the last question is what is your resolution rate based on all that? Because then you can, you know, I mean this is a higher equation thing but you can see there.
Speaker 1:There, if 70, if 90% of their of their cases are court ordered and they have a 25% success rate, then you got it right there. It's the, it's the, it's the Colorado Rockies and the Chicago Cubs. For so many years, people kept showing up to the games, even if they weren't successful, just because they kept showing up. That was the Cubs, and forever.
Speaker 2:That's the Colorado.
Speaker 1:Rockies now, because everybody shows up and they don't care if they win or not. So it's that same philosophy. They keep getting business because it's just given to them. They have no incentive to really be successful. So I think those are great questions that you ask and that leads me into just re-emphasizing because I do with the guys all the time is that you're in charge of this process.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. That's a great point.
Speaker 1:Get educated, ask the questions Don's a great point. Get educated, ask the questions, don't bury your head. If you weren't the leader in your family and you weren't leading, it might be one of the reasons why you're in this position you're at. It's the time now for you to start doing that.
Speaker 2:Ask your mediator If you don't get the answers find another mediator and ask the questions.
Speaker 1:If you don't get the answers or you don't like the answers, find another one, but make sure to start taking the reins in this process.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and if I can, just I'll share this with you. I'll answer a question you didn't ask, but you kind of did. The percentage of clients we get from the courts or referral is zero. 100% of our business is client referral or direct and we, for that very reason it's exactly what you said. It said because we work hard, we're selective, right, we interview our clients too, because we want to make sure that they're as committed to this process as we are, because we're putting it in day in and day out and along the lines of what you were saying, and part of how we do that is, if you go on our website, you probably have that in your show notes here, whatever it is, we have a resource center and since 2007, I can't believe I'm saying that out loud I have been blogging and I've been writing these guides, everything from divorce after 20 years to amicable divorce, to how does alimony work and all these things, and that's how people find us.
Speaker 2:Because we feel very strongly that you need to get educated on this process, because I'll just you know, I know everybody's listening, so it's not really a secret, but an educated client is a great client for us. They come in with realistic expectations. They come in with a sense of how things work, right, they don't have to have all the answers, but they have enough information to know sort of what they don't know. Right, and they can ask the intelligent questions. So our philosophy has always been to invest in people and educate them.
Speaker 2:And if they work with us, great, and if they don't, that's great, because we get visitors from all over the world and we're only practicing in six states. But let them get that knowledge so that, like you said, they can go away, they can feel empowered, they can feel educated, and then the fear also subsides, right? It's like I remember being a kid. I had to get my wisdom teeth out. I have no cavities in my face. I don't know how that happened. I have no cavities, never really had a problem to a dentist and the first real main interaction I had with a dentist was to get my wisdom teeth out.
Speaker 2:I was freaking out right, because I'm like, oh my God, and then, like two hours later, I'm eating SpaghettiOs. I'm like, oh my god, and then, like two hours later, I'm eating spaghettios. I'm like, well, I freaked myself out over this, right I? If I had known, right, you know. So same thing get educated, reduce the fear, reduce that reactivity, work with a coach like yourself, and then, and, and, and, get through the process comp. That's really key, key, key.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, perfect, so we could probably talk for another hour but we're even, we're like coming up on an hour. So where was, where's the website where they, where the listeners, can find that, that blog and that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, sure, you just go to equitablemediationcom and then you'll just see. Right there there's a resource center that has blogs. It has video courses. You know we have a free course on mediation. We have free books, blog posts. You know all this kind of stuff. There's even some courses that you can purchase.
Speaker 2:We have I put together a whole negotiation course on how to negotiate a divorce right, not fill out the court forms and all of that stuff. On how to negotiate a divorce right, not fill out the court forms and all of that stuff, but how to actually get into the room and negotiate with your soon-to-be ex, right. What are all the things that I, as a mediator, do, whether clients know it or not. You also can learn to do that. It's not hard. You just have know certain tricks of the trade in your back pocket if you will.
Speaker 2:But a lot of that stuff is out there. You know a lot of it's free. Just feel free to go there. You know, use the resources that are out there, right, get educated on it. And you know, just tell your listeners absolutely Like, don't be afraid. We have people who sometimes come to the first meeting and they've printed out our blog posts. I was like that's such a high compliment, right? It's like somebody took the time to print out something you wrote and keep it. I was like, well, in this day and age, right, that's so digital and scrolly and all that You're like oh cool, Thanks yeah.
Speaker 1:And then at the website, can they reach you and get a hold of you through the website?
Speaker 2:Yeah, they can. So you'll see there's a button that says talk to us. And we practice in Washington State, California, Illinois, New York, Pennsylvania and New Jersey. Those are the six states we practice in.
Speaker 2:So if you practice, in one of our live in one of our six states. There's a little button up top that says talk to us. You click that. You schedule a free call with my partner, cheryl. She'll tell you. You know about how the process works. You know things like that.
Speaker 2:See, if you're a good fit, you know if mediation is a possibility, then after that you can schedule an initial meeting with me and your spouse. Like, so, that's the three of us. And so, yeah, so we have an opportunity for you to reach out. Schedule a call with Cheryl, no obligation. We just want to say, hey, does mediation work for you? Can we work with you? Are you a good fit? Are we a good fit? Give you a little education, a little background, and again, it's really just about getting knowledge. Because I'll leave you with this. When I think back to all the clients I've had, I can probably count on two hands, maybe I'll say so like one fraction of 1% of the clients who have come to us, who have been previously divorced. Most of the people we work with, literally the 99.9% of the clients we work with this is the first time they're going through this and, like you said, I thought that was perfect. You don't know what you don't know. Through this and like you said, I thought that was perfect.
Speaker 2:You don't know what you don't know, so know it, learn it. It's out there.
Speaker 1:You can learn it right. So get educated. Big makes all the difference. Yeah, Awesome. Last question when are you coming to Colorado? And the other 44 states Because we definitely need a better type of mediation like you provide I appreciate it.
Speaker 2:You know, give it some thought. Right, because we like to go into a state where we understand how it works, we're comfortable mediating, we build a professional network before we even think of mediating somewhere. Right, we want mortgage professionals and review attorneys and filing professionals and folks in our back pocket. But we'll certainly keep Colorado in mind. And, yeah, I'm really sorry you had that experience, man, I'll tell you, jude, that just breaks my heart. But unfortunately it's a story that I hear a lot, because we get quite a few clients who have come to us from other mediators and they're like what are we doing here? And I'm like, well, this is how it works. Well, I should say, this is how it should work, right, and so there is a right and a wrong way to do this. I truly believe that.
Speaker 2:And that lends us to that case resolution right, Because if you have that process, you have it all out on the table. It's really hard to argue with the facts, you know so.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, no that. So yeah, yeah, no. That's awesome and and uh, and it's a good thing, because then it gives me the opportunity now to share the right way uh with with everybody and to be able to point out the difference in the future, going forward with uh with the, with the dads that I come in contact with, that there is a better way uh to to do this. This is, this is who you can talk to, and these are the questions I learned so much today. It was phenomenal.
Speaker 2:I truly, truly appreciate it.
Speaker 1:I've been in the family law system for 13 years and this is enlightening and eye-opening for me today, and I hope it was for everybody else that listened. Joe, I really appreciate what you're doing, thank you.
Speaker 1:Really appreciate the professionalism and the wisdom and the conscientiousness that you bring to doing what you do. It's obvious in talking to you and hearing you speak, hearing you speak. So having professionals like you in the system gives me hope and helps me to tell guys yeah, mediation is a good thing. Find somebody like Joe and equitable and it can be a good thing. That's great Well thanks. Thanks for being here.
Speaker 2:I sincerely appreciate it my pleasure, thank you.
