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The Divorced Dadvocate: Divorce Support For Dads
The Divorced Dadvocate: Divorce Support For Dads is a weekly podcast designed specifically for fathers navigating divorce. It addresses the unique challenges men face and offers practical guidance, emotional support, and real-life insights to help dads survive — and ultimately thrive — during and after divorce.
Each episode combines honest conversation, personal stories, and action-oriented advice to help listeners rebuild confidence, create healthy co-parenting strategies, manage finances, navigate court complexities, and heal emotionally. Since launching in 2020, the show has become a trusted resource and supportive community for divorced and divorcing dads.
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The Divorced Dadvocate: Divorce Support For Dads
269 - Don't Leave Money on the Table When Your Marriage Ends
Financial expert Tammy Guns delivers a masterclass in divorce finances, revealing why proper planning can save you tens or even hundreds of thousands of dollars during one of life's most challenging transitions.
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Music credit: Akira the Don
Hello and welcome to the show. Thank you so much for tuning in this week. I've got a tremendous expert that is going to be talking to us about all things financial during divorce. But before we jump in with her, let me welcome some of the new members, as always, to the Divorced Advocate community. Welcome to Cullen, Kelly and Brian. If you are not a member of the Divorced Advocate community, Welcome to Cullen, Kelly and Brian. If you are not a member of the Divorced Advocate community yet, get the support that you deserve and need at the website, at thedivorcedadvocatecom. Wherever you're at in the process, whatever resources you have, we have something there that can help you out. So check it out at thedivorcedadvocatecom.
Speaker 1:All right, my guest today is a highly, highly accomplished professional with a unique blend of expertise in auditing, business development, divorce mediation, asset tracing and expert witness testimony. She has served on two boards of directors, authored two award-winning books and holds four yes, four college degrees, including two masters, with a strong foundation in accounting. She's a graduate of the University of Michigan and the University of Wisconsin and is also an engaging international keynote speaker. Her career highlights include delivering a TEDx talk in Dallas, Texas, and chairing a global conference in Rome, Italy. Please welcome Tammy Guns. How are you doing, Tammy?
Speaker 2:I'm doing well. Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1:How are you today? I am great, and that is some resume and I got to say to my audience you come very highly recommended in the area that we kind of operate in in the divorce realm here. So when we connected I was pretty excited to chat with you and our previous chat did not disappoint. It was very exciting and we've got just a ton of stuff, as any of the listeners can imagine, in talking about the financial piece of divorce. It is so. It can be well one, it's emotionally charged, but it can be so complex and complicated sometimes as well. So I'm really interested in chatting with you about that. But before we jump into some of those more specifics, share a little bit about yourself and why in the world would you want to get into this complex world of finances and emotional world of divorce and worked with divorce and divorcing couples?
Speaker 2:Well, I ended up getting into this space based on having my own journey in it as well. So I mean, right out of college I worked at Arthur Anderson, I did auditing and I've spent my entire career doing finance work and accounting work. But again, to me that was not as interesting as being able to help people through a really difficult transition in their life. And so when I walked this path myself back in 2006, because I was officially divorced back in 2007, I just saw personally how much you know divorce is really 90% kids and finances and really only 10% legal, and how the financial piece can make people really afraid. I know when I was going through my divorce, I'd wake up at two o'clock in the morning scared, very scared for what my life was going to look like and so I actually really enjoy the work that I do.
Speaker 2:I know when I say I go to cocktail parties and I tell people what I do, they kind of cringe but I say no. I feel very honored to be able to help people go through a divorce.
Speaker 1:Well, so instead of getting another degree in law, you decided to go the whole divorce route, which is, I think and it's unfortunate that we get the dads that come to us after the fact that just did not have somebody like you that was able to take them through the process during the divorce, during temporary orders or post-nups, and then through final orders and then setting their lives up for success after, and that just puts you so far behind the eight ball. And the unfortunate thing is that so many people, even if they aren't in financial straits, after experiencing that they don't even know how much money they have either left on the table or lost because they just went through and split it down the middle and had all kinds of tax implications or couldn't get an assumption done, or they're refinanced on, or had to wait years and like so many different things that they don't even know. And oftentimes I don't even say anything right, because you don't want to just add rub salt in the wound. But that's what I want to talk to you today is to just get this information out there to the dads listening and why it is so incredibly important we talk on this show a lot about creating your divorce team that they're the divorce coach. They're the ones going to have to run this.
Speaker 1:The attorney is one player on that team, maybe a very important one right A quarterback or running back, but I would say the next most important one is going to be a financial analyst. Well, you're a certified divorce financial analyst and there's a difference and we're going to talk about that too as to financial planners and what they can and can't and their expertise and what you will be able to do to help them. So let's just start out. It becomes obvious that there's going to be a change in your finance when you're going through divorce. What is one of the first things you would tell a dad when money moves? What they should do when they figure out that divorce is imminent?
Speaker 2:Well, certainly, gathering all of your information right, All of your documents. They're required anyway under the statutes for disclosure. So you want to know all of your assets and all of your liabilities. So we always start with the marital balance sheet because that can impact depending on which assets you receive it can impact your cash flow. So we always start there.
Speaker 2:About half of the work I do I do mediation, so I'm working with both spouses through the divorce. And then the other half of the work I do litigation support, so I'm working with one spouse. So I always say I meet clients where they are. But no matter what client I'm working with, I'm always going to start with the marital balance sheet and one of the important aspects is we walk through everything, such as tell me your goals, what are you wanting? Do you want the marital home? Do you not want the marital home? So we can start to kind of form a plan of what things look like. But I also will talk to people through the process regarding liquidity and tax implications, because sometimes people think they're trading a dollar for a dollar, when they're really trading a dollar for maybe 60 cents or 85 cents, right, so we literally every single asset. I'll ask them if they know the basis. Sometimes people don't even know what basis is.
Speaker 2:I'll explain that to them and then I look at are there future tax implications with this particular asset that you're receiving? But that's only part of the story. What I tell people when I work with them is sometimes, when you meet with me, you may have more questions than answers, but I promise you through the process that we will get to the final answer as far as what makes sense from an asset base, liability base as well as cash flow. So we need all of that information because sometimes someone really wants a marital home but we talk through it like can you assume the loan? Or, if not, how do you refinancing? Do you need to buy out the other person? Can we do this as a deferred asset? So we literally talk about things. I always say I'm not just here to get you a divorce, because anyone can do that. Right, you can get someone to an agreement.
Speaker 2:I'm here to get you where it makes sense for you post-decree, so that you have the least amount of conflict and you have thought through everything. We do not leave any stone unturned when we go through the process, so that people have a very wide perspective. And it's interesting, people answer their own questions, because I ask them a lot of questions about what assets they want and then once they see the whole thing and they see the cash flow, they're like, oh, this doesn't make sense anymore, and so they really do answer their own questions in the end.
Speaker 1:Right. So I see this quite often if one of the dads has not been the one that is handling the finances, paying the bills, that it's absolutely imperative to start figuring out. Hopefully it's amicably, where you can be working with your soon-to-be ex and getting and compiling this information, but if it's not, it is crucial that you start getting a handle on and figuring out what is going on with your finances, where money's at what's getting paid, like everything so that is and start to create a system to where you're able to keep that at Google Drive or something else, that you're then able to pull this information because you're going to need this throughout the entire process. Right, they're going to talk to you first to hopefully get help and sorting it all out and understanding, maybe a game plan, but then they're going to need it for their attorneys and then their their attorneys, and that might be, depending on the length of the divorce, right, that that can be years sometimes. That's going to get updated and then you're going to have to update it with the court, with your attorney and with the court. So, get a filing system, get all your stuff in a pile and and and get it all ready so that then you can take it to Tammy.
Speaker 1:And then the next thing you talked about, which was kind of what I alluded to in the beginning, which is then looking at this stuff, have you talk, maybe a little bit more in detail? We could talk about this for hours and talk about all the situations and how they can maximize their taxes, et cetera, which I don't want to do. That's why I want them to call you right or call a CDFA, but let's talk about that, because even with, let's say, you've got a house which is an asset and some retirement stuff, there are some significant tax things that you can do when, like you just alluded to and maybe we can give an example of, just a brief example of, say, one of the two would like to well, let's just use it. Okay, the dad wants to be able to keep the house right, and so he wants to finance. Or, let's say, he wants to do an assumption, but then he's going to have to pay out whatever that equity is, and so, let's say, there's retirement funds, and then he's thinking about maybe offsetting that.
Speaker 1:Let's talk about a scenario like that and how they can save money by talking to you, as opposed to just saying, okay, well, we're just going to split it, or we're going to split those assets and then he'd take out the retirement funds. They get a penalty on them and then he gives that to the other person or whatever crazy thing that might. I mean, I'm sure you've seen I've seen crazy stuff from going. Why would you do that? You just gave the government like tens of thousands of dollars. That's stupid.
Speaker 2:Right. So one of the things when we look at who wants the house in this case, you said that the dad wanted the house.
Speaker 2:So, we'll say, okay, well, you know. I want to know the basis. I want to know if he is going to have a future tax implication Currently. Of course, tax laws can change, but currently there's a $250,000 exclusion per person, and so if he receives, you end up in a divorce, you're subject to what is called 1041 exchange rules. It's an IRS statute that says you receive assets in a divorce. There's no tax implication at the time of that. However, once you go to sell it, then you have to pay the taxes.
Speaker 2:So I'd want to know, especially in the most recent years, houses have gone way up in value and so there could be a capital gain, and again, that capital gain could be anywhere between 15 and 20%. Again, this is based on 2025 tax rules. These could change at any moment. Now, if they're going to now not have a retirement fund or exchange that to the other spouse. Certainly there's two different things. Number one I'd want to know about liquidity, right? Because if the other spouse is looking to also purchase a condo or a townhouse, you would want to say, okay, well, how can they get some liquidity IRAs? If they are moved over to a spouse? You really can't cash them in until you're 59 and a half without penalty. However, a 401k you can. So there's a one-time exclusion.
Speaker 2:You have to have what's called a qualified domestic relations order that will move the 401k over. However, 401ks will allow you to have an election. It's a one-time election and you must do it at the time that you're getting the 401k moved over into your name. You're able to take that out as cash and that way, that person could have the cash to be able to buy a house or, like I said, or a condo or use it for living expenses.
Speaker 2:Now, they don't have the 10% penalty if they're less than 59 and a half. However, they would have to pay ordinary income taxes. So sometimes what we do you know certainly if I was with the dad I wouldn't point that out to the spouse that, hey, if you're going to take that qualified domestic relations order, you're going to take that 401k that there would be a tax implication as far as they're going to have to pay ordinary income taxes on it. However, for my clients I'm going to point that out I'm going to say listen, if you're going to be the one receiving that 401k, ask for a true up. Ask for, if you were going to take $100,000 and you want to take it cash, ask for $120,.
Speaker 1:Right, true up. So basis is what the value is right, just to be clear for those listening. And then the true up is that you're making considerations for what those tax implications are so you can have a true net of, let's say, if it's $100,000, you're getting $110,000 because there's 10% whatever 10% tax implication on there. So you're going to true that, obviously, if they're working together, hopefully they're talking about this in an amicable manner and trying to help each other to offset any of this. But again, like you said, if it's contentious you're just trying, you're not trying to get over, but you're setting yourself up as much as you can to do what's the best thing. So then, to summarize what you said was so with the IRAs, there's nothing you can do. Those get either transferred or they get split and there's penalties and taxes on it and there's you can do the QDROs, right, the QDRO which is. Then they can do the one-time transfer. So say, the dad's assuming the loan, which is a whole other thing which we did. We just did an episode last week or two weeks ago with Carla on how to do assumptions and the complications around that. But they are doable, and one of the things was whether assumption is good or not, or possible or not, is if there is equity that needs to be paid to the other spouse, and so this 401k is an option to be able to do that without having to pay any of those penalties. And so that's and this is.
Speaker 1:I just wanted to use one example like this because I see and it's just because you don't know what you don't know right, because when I went through it 12 years ago, I didn't know. You probably did, because you're an accountant and you have accounting money I know, when we talked to Carla, one of the things that she was grateful for was that she had her mortgage background and she knew what she could and couldn't do with the mortgage and was able to finagle some of this stuff. But attorneys do not know about so much of this stuff and we just see them like, okay, looking at the balance, they'll get their financial disclosures and they'll just go okay, well, you're going to get half of that, and then you're going to have whatever that penalty is, and it is such a huge, huge mistake. So that's hopefully that example that you just provided helps those listening to understand that, hey, you've really got yourself up and everybody up for the best possible outcomes, because this is a simple math equation.
Speaker 1:Even non-accountant dummies like me, who got a D in accounting in college, can look at this math equation and say one household into two means more expenses and same income, probably, and so if you're not paying attention to that, it makes it. You can put I see people all the time put themselves in financial straits and it doesn't have to be that way. So you can be smart by contacting somebody before you talk to the attorney or while you're talking to the attorney. So what is one of the biggest mistakes that you see dads running into when they do, outside of the one that I just described? Are there any other big mistakes that you see happening when couples are divorcing from a financial standpoint?
Speaker 2:Yeah, they don't look at their future cash flow, and that's what I do with every single one of my clients, because if someone wants the house, maybe they'll qualify from the bank's perspective, the mortgage lending institution's perspective. However, when they look at all of their expenses, or especially if they have children and there's extracurricular activities and whatnot and braces, they're not looking at their cash flow. So they may make a decision to take the marital home, give up a part of their retirement and then maybe a year down the road, they end up selling that home and now they're going to have again. They could potentially have a capital gain and now they're going to buy a much smaller home because they just realized that they could not afford it. You know, there's nothing worse, I think, than being house poor. I think a lot of people want to hang on their homes because of the.
Speaker 2:they think it's stability for the children. And let me tell you, kids are resilient, right? Kids can. In fact, I always say it's much better for the kids to go through a major life event like this under your tutelage, where you're able to hold them and talk to them and wipe away their tears. And then, when they go off to college someday or they're an adult someday and they face challenges it's not the first challenge they've ever faced and so I think kids are far more resilient than people give themselves credit for or give the kids credit for, and so they'll try to hang on to a marital home when it just doesn't make sense financially. I'm sure the kids would much prefer that you live comfortably where you can pay all of your bills, versus being stressed out constantly about making those payments. And so, like I said, there's not a client I work with that I don't work with them on future cash flow projections to make sure the decisions they're making make sense.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's huge, because so often you know, in my case we had remodeled the house and I got it exactly how I wanted it and there's so much emotion that goes into it. And one of the things you like you said and obviously you've been through this right Is the thing the thing with the kids and you're worried about the kids. You don't want to disrupt the kids, but we talk about it all the time here how resilient they are, that this is an opportunity whether you can see it right now for you to be able to demonstrate and model for kids getting through a difficult and challenging time and and your point also, which is tremendous that you're also there to help them through a difficult and challenging time. So not only you're modeling your that for them and they see you and how you're reacting, but you're able to to nurture them through it, which is a a huge, huge thing, huge thing.
Speaker 1:But the cash flow thing is really, really something it seems like there's usually one or the other, and I don't know if this is your experience or not, or if you find that men or women tend to be just more attached and less aware of the cash flow side of this, because, because it, it, man, it is. It is so awful when one or the other parent is, like you said, just clinging to say this mortgage, that is just, it's going to be ridiculously expensive, even if they can refinance it. Just to do that. How do you cut through some of that emotion? Let's say, because we get guys that are emotional about it, we get women that are emotional. I would posit that women sometimes get more emotional about it and look at it maybe less of a business transaction, but you do this more. So how do you cut through that and try to help them to move in a direction that you know is going to be financially better for them?
Speaker 2:Well, like I said, a lot of our process, people end up answering their own questions. So I'm like okay, so you want the home. And then I'll say, let's go through your budget. What is that new payment going to look like? And oh, by the way, you know, do you need? You're going to change your health insurance policy and now your insurance is going to go up on your cars or maybe you're. There's a lot of expenses they don't think about right and so maybe they have a plan, together with a family, for phones. Now I'm going to okay, now you're going to have to pay for that on your own. So we go through all of the things I don't tell people hey, listen, you shouldn't keep this home or you shouldn't keep this asset. I'll go through and ask them what they're thinking. We'll go through that process. Then we'll go through their expenses and then, I look at their income.
Speaker 1:And.
Speaker 2:I certainly look at everything Like are they going to be paying support or are they going to be receiving support? Then we get down there and I'll say, okay, now, if you keep the house, this is what it's going to look like on a monthly cash flow, you're only going to be positive. You know, $100. What happens if you need new tires that month, right? So then what happens is then the people will answer their own questions of oh, this doesn't make sense, I don't think I should keep the home. Or if I do keep the home now, I have nothing in retirement.
Speaker 2:I'm in my middle 40s. What does that look like? So I ask lots of questions of my clients. I have, like I said, a process that it seems to work for everybody as far as then at the end they're like boy Tammy, I don't think I want the home anymore or I don't want this asset. So they really do answer their own questions because it's what they're comfortable with. And I'll tell you, I think it's universal that people don't dig this deep into their finances. Most people don't have very good budgets that they follow and so it may seem rudimentary, but it's not.
Speaker 2:It's actually key to understanding what things are going to look like. Or people could have a historical knowledge of their budgets, but we want to do a forward-looking budget so that they understand what is it going to really look like tomorrow, not yesterday.
Speaker 1:Right. So basically, I feel like you're describing to me as financial therapy. You're sitting and asking them questions and they're answering questions and they're kind of coming to it by speaking out loud to what you're asking them and finally making their conclusions like, yeah, I'm not going to be able to go on that girls or guys trip because I'm not going to have any money or even, like you said, just be able to buy a new set of tires or if the car breaks down, or something like that. I think that's brilliant. When you're working with and this would be different maybe in the different scenarios that you discuss, whether it's the couple together or one of the individuals how long does it usually take you to sit down with them, go through that and let's just use just a scenario where they have a house, maybe some retirement, because obviously if you build in businesses and other larger assets or stuff like that, that's things do the financial therapy with them and then come up with a plan for them that they can take to their attorney and implement it.
Speaker 2:Well, when I do mediation and I'm working with both spouses, it tends to be you know, I meet with them for two hours at a time and we usually meet every other week, so we can go through an entire divorce in six weeks about. I don't like to rush it because I want people to be able to digest the information that we're talking about, because they're making decisions for the rest of their life. You know you don't get to say oops with the court. No, now I've decided I don't want this asset.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:But with an individual client, when we're going through things anywhere between four and six hours, but I don't like to meet with people for more than two hours at a time because I want them to be able to truly understand what we're talking about. I realize that emotions and the ability to comprehend are an inverse relationship, so the higher the emotions, the less people are able to comprehend. I don't care if you're Einstein, it's going to work that same way. So, as we all know, going through a divorce, it's a high emotional period of time, and so that's why I want to be able to talk through things so people truly understand this is their life, it is not my life, and I say that all the time to my clients. I'm like I am here to help you, I'm here to serve you and your needs, and this is not my life.
Speaker 1:I want you to be comfortable with this decision Right, and I wanted to clarify something that you said there too.
Speaker 1:So you do mediation for couples, but you also do just a plan for couples or individuals that are just going through this process, so that they can either take it together, like I said in the beginning, to their respective attorneys and hopefully it's amicable and then presented to the court and then the court approves it, or, if it is a high conflict, then that's their plan that they're fighting for and arguing maybe, and then I know that you're also an expert witness around some of that stuff too.
Speaker 1:So so you do both of those things which are which are which are different, but and I'd want to emphasize also that that plan part of it because that's the one that I I don't see happening enough, even if it is amicable with couples, that it is huge to find somebody to. I'm just going to beat this to death this entire time. It's already half hour but it's huge to have somebody and I'm sure you agree with me to look at that up front. That is so, so important. So, on the emotions part, some dads feel the financial system in divorce is stacked against them. I'm not going to get into the details of that, but from your CDFA perspective, how can they prepare so the settlement will be fair and sustainable for them? So just kind of looking from the perspective of a dad here.
Speaker 2:Well so, and my own brother went through a divorce, and he went through a divorce a very, very long time ago, back when the courts were not as favorable for dads having 50% custody of the children, and so my brother was kind of on the cutting edge of getting 50% custody of his son when that was just unheard of when he got divorced. And so I have my own brother who is a huge advocate for fathers in divorce. I would say that sometimes people will let guilt or their own emotions kind of have them go. Well, she can just have that or she can just do this, I don't care. And they'll almost give away the farm in order to commit feeling guilty or other emotions that are involved.
Speaker 2:And I always say listen, you're going through a high emotional period of your life and don't do that because you're going to have to live after this. And so that's where I always bring them back to what's happening on paper here. What do we really see from, like I said, the asset standpoint, the tax standpoint, the cash flow standpoint? You know I want the dads to be able to have the financial wherewithal to be able to do things with their kids and take their kids on vacation. So I think sometimes I've seen that happen, where people will let truly guilt get in the way of good decision-making, because you know what I always tell people when I meet with them. Listen, most states are no-fault states.
Speaker 2:I think actually there's no state in the United States that isn't so. What happened or transpired in the marriage is really not my business. I'm here to help you going forward, so don't let those emotions from the past cloud your decision-making going forward.
Speaker 1:Right. So that's where it's important to get a therapist on your team or a coach or both, so that you're not and I can relate to that. It was just, I was, finally, I just wanted this done, and I don't really care what it looks like and that was a huge, huge mistake, because I got worn down and I did not do what we're talking about today and I did not get a coach and a therapist to be able to help me build the skills to deal with the emotions, to deal with everything that was coming up. So that's great and that's completely non-financial advice, right, which is learn, do what you need to do to get through.
Speaker 1:It's going to be even in the most amicable divorces, there's a huge amount of emotional, mental, emotional weight that goes through this, and then the finances are. That seems to be the thing that really in like, uh, supercharge those, those emotions and and feelings right, that's like you said, just make you lay up at night and stressed out and worrying and and make everything much more, much more difficult. So that's, uh, that good. That wasn't exactly the answer I was expecting, but that makes perfect sense. Yeah, that's great. You're, you're like, you're truly like a financial therapist, in addition to certified to the North's financial answers. Right, there's so much psychology and mental, emotional issues that that go into it. It's, it's something I probably you know until this conversation.
Speaker 2:I do realize it, but, like the work that you've got to do in order to cut through some of that is is pretty immense. Yes, I mean, and I I want to make sure that you know people are understanding what's going on, like you said, because I do see people becoming weary in the end and I'm like listen, you know I'm here to help you and support you through the end so that you don't make a decision that you're going to regret later on. And even so, you know you had mentioned that. You know here, because of my background in accounting, that I must have known this stuff going through my divorce. No, because there's nuances.
Speaker 2:You know, in college I didn't learn about divorce, right, I didn't learn about the nuances. So there's things that really my training as a certified divorce financial analyst have trained me to understand things from a divorce perspective. Some of the statutes that are, you know, different. The states are different, whether you're a community property state or not. So there's a lot of nuances that have, you know, really nothing to do with finance and accounting and so they're really specific to divorce. So you don't want to just talk to your CPA that does your taxes. They're certainly an important person to ask questions of, but they're not going to see the whole picture. Same with the financial planner. They have a certain expertise, but they're not necessarily familiar with all of the divorce nuances and the statutes that surround that.
Speaker 1:Right, so let's talk about that. That's a good segue to what we alluded to a little bit earlier is the you might have a financial planner, which is great. Hopefully you do. They've helped you create a budget. They've helped you get to the point that you're at now with your assets and your retirement and investments and everything else. That's that's really tremendous. That's really tremendous. But why and and I you said it, but I want you to say it again right, why talk to you instead of and I get, I get this all the time yeah, I've got a financial planner. I'm like, okay, and I do do the same thing. And when I'm coaching guys, coaching the dads, I say that's great, but there are nuances and and you take it from there, what like? Why? Why do they need to come to you instead of just their financial planner? And maybe you have an example of one that just did not work out well with their financial planner.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I've actually, and again, financial planners are wonderful professionals and they have a great role that they serve.
Speaker 2:But I will tell you, I've had different people come to me, many cases not just one where a financial planner is helping to try to propose a settlement and I will say what's wrong with it and for all the particular reasons Some of it has to do with support purposes they're like, well, this can happen and I'll say, well, that's never going to fly.
Speaker 2:In court Again, I always tell people I'm going to offer you my professional opinion. I don't offer legal advice because I'm not an attorney. However, I know from being in court as an expert witness what will fly and what won't. And so a lot of financial planners very good hearted people will propose something that I'm like that won't work, or this is going to mess up their liquidity, or you didn't look at their future cash flow. They're really looking at it perhaps from an asset under management perspective or whatnot. There are definitely people that when I'm working with clients, I'll say these are a professional you may want to talk to about a certain particular aspect of it, but not the overall picture, because they're going to miss things because they're not familiar with the statutes, whereas CDFAs are.
Speaker 1:Right. Well, and another thing that you're being kind enough not to say, but I will, is that they might have a different perspective on why they want those assets to stay with them and not get transferred to the other spouse or cashed out or put into a hire or something else like that. And that's not to say that anybody's doing things disingenuously, but, hey, there's human nature that is involved in this whole process too. So, and that's just in addition to the fact that they don't know all the nuances going through that they're really looking at a. The way that I see it is they're just looking at a snapshot of of right now. Right, they're not. They're not looking both down the road and all the what's going to happen in college. And maybe they are, maybe they're, hopefully they're doing it, but they're not. They're not really doing the, the the real specific, detailed work and running the scenarios and giving the different options and scenarios that somebody like you would be able to do and be able to give them that.
Speaker 1:What are some of? What are some of the? We keep talking about cashflow, which I think is really good because it's just, it's just huge. Really good because it's just huge If you get yourself into just a situation where you just don't have any money, you can't have a life, and if you can't have a life, you can't take care of your kids and you're not in a good space and it just becomes awful. What are some things that you see that get missed? Maybe expenses, stuff? Is there one or two or five things that you see that just really get missed? Attorneys don't think of that. You don't think of that is really important.
Speaker 2:Well. So one of the meetings that I have with clients is we go over budgets in great detail and I have a budget worksheet that we look at. So people don't my budget worksheet will prompt them to think of all sorts of expenses that they may you know. Otherwise they're just going to what's the mortgage, you know? What's the taxes, what's the insurance? Here's my utilities. We have a very detailed, miscellaneous section that will go over things that people might not. You know, I have a lot of guys who don't account for haircuts. I'm like, hey, don't you get your hair cut? So there's things that we put in there. We do a lot of maintenance, things like that. So people are, I mean, truly we think of almost everything that you. So people will under budget. They really do. They will under budget what their true expenses are, and that's where they're going to miss their cashflow going forward.
Speaker 2:Another thing, too, is that sometimes people will I've seen this with a lot of my dad clients is they don't want to accept spousal support because they have some, you know, maybe moral reasons for it, or just they don't like the idea of receiving support. And so I'll say to them listen, okay, maybe we could do a bio. But how does that impact? If you're going to refinance or assume the mortgage Now, you may not be able to qualify because you're not seeing that comingousal support or child support. And I'm like, hey, listen, you were used to living in a household for many years with that type of income. There's nothing wrong with accepting support.
Speaker 2:In fact, it's going to help you and help your children. So I mean, that's another psychological question that we will talk about.
Speaker 1:Right, and that's becoming more and more common these days with stay-at-home dads. Do you see any disparity in the courts as a witness or being involved in this, between the spousal support that gets ordered to stay-at-home dads versus stay-at-home moms?
Speaker 2:No, because, at least within the state of Colorado, which is predominantly where I do most of my work although I can do work in any state it's based on a couple of things. So it's based on the person who's going to pay, their ability to pay, but you also have to show the need for the support. There are formulas that you can use. In fact I go to court a lot on spousal support calculations. A lot of the reasons I go as an expert witness is doing income determination of private business owners and so spousal support, child support. There's statutes surrounding what is included in an income and, believe me, the tax return is a starting point. I tell that to judges all the time. It is not an ending point and there's all sorts of reasons why the tax return is not a good indication of final income. In fact, I've done continuing education for judges within the state of Colorado. For judges within the state of Colorado. They're, again, lovely people, but they did not go to college for accounting and finance.
Speaker 2:Most of them went for political science, history. I've had judges, even in education classes, say I don't even know the difference between gross and net profit. So it's an education. As an expert witness, I always feel like I'm there to help educate the judges in the financial. You know, there to help educate the judges, to help paint the financial story of my client.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's a really, really terrific point, because what so many people don't understand particularly if you are going to be in a high conflict divorce is that it is then incumbent upon you to demonstrate or to argue your reasons why you feel that whatever you're arguing is the case. And I don't think so many people know or understand. They think, oh yeah, well, we'll just look at tax returns or we'll just look at the statements or the balances and then we can just split those. They don't know. And then they don't know and the attorneys don't know and the judges don't know, and then this is just like the blind leading. Honestly, it is like the blind leading the blind.
Speaker 1:Sometime in some of these court cases, and I'm sure I'm sure you've got lots and lots of stories, but you just sit there and go. I just can't believe that nobody on either side has like paid attention to any of this stuff and it just just they kind of. It's almost like, hey, we just check the box, we check the box, we check the box, we check the box, we check the box and you're divorced. And then that gets to like where I said, some of them. You look back and you're like, okay, I'm not gonna say why? Why did you do that? Because you lost tens of thousands of dollars. But I don't want to, I don't want to rub salt in the wound already. So so it it goes back to what we always say in the show.
Speaker 1:It is incumbent upon you to know to understand the statutes.
Speaker 1:You mentioned the statutes around child support and then also spousal support as well.
Speaker 1:Most states it is by statute, so it's just going to be that dollar amount, right is where it can get iffy If it is particularly business or self-reported income.
Speaker 1:Right, there's write-offs et cetera that go into tax returns. So if your attorney doesn't know how to read a tax return, which most of them don't, then they have no idea how to add some of that stuff back in and get to really what their salaries are, what their incomes are, so that those statute, those state statute numbers are really really accurate. And so, again, a reason why you need to have somebody like Tammy to be, even if it's just simple you have a house, you have a retirement fund, some investments, and one of you has a business. You need somebody to look at those business tax returns or tax returns, however they file them, to know that there's actually this the income is appropriate and you're both getting well. Hopefully you're working together, you're both getting set up the right way, but if you're arguing about it that the income's imputed the right way, right, yeah, with regard to the finances too, it's disclosure right.
Speaker 2:There's certainly statements. People are required to do disclosure of assets and liabilities. However, someone can be dishonest and not disclose some bank account they have or some investment they have, and that's part of the forensic accounting that we do. Again, that's not every client, not everybody has that need, but we know how to look at tax returns, how to look for missing assets or how to look at bank statements to see if funds are going a particular direction. Are there missing bank accounts that are not being reported? So, yes, you have to show statements to the other side, but that doesn't mean that someone's going to show you all their statements, and so we certainly can help people find that information. Although, like I said, that's under super high conflict divorces Most of our work that we do is not super high conflict.
Speaker 1:Right, but yeah, there's ways to see gaps, right. That just don't make sense. And then you go hmm, I wonder why that is, and you dig a little bit further. But yeah, like you said, agree with this, don't go through something like that. It's the small percentage, unfortunately it's a small percentage that we hear about or we see on the news or gets all the press and the media about this stuff, but it's usually people get through this amicably and figure this out. So any last pearls of wisdom, thoughts, ideas that you can share with the dads.
Speaker 2:You know, I've actually worked with clients who are CPAs or who have a vast knowledge regarding finances or accounting, and they still come to me for advice. Because what I said before, which is not everybody understands all the nuances within the statutes regarding or surrounding divorce, I think it's actually very helpful to have experts come in and help guide you through the process, because they're going to think of things that you might not think of. Right, and I know almost everyone that I talk to as well as clients are like well, my sister's cousin's brother told me this.
Speaker 2:Right, you're like well, you know that's you know that's not the right information or whatever, and so it's best to really talk to professionals. I mean, and honestly I've done this just for my own kind of like. Looking at the clients I work with, there's not a single client I have worked with that my fee isn't paid 10 times over, if not sometimes hundreds of times over. I'm not kidding. In things and advice that I give them, that actually saves them money in the end. So don't be penny wise and pound foolish. Divorce experts whether they're therapists, coaches, financial experts, anybody they really end up really helping you through the process and then you're not missing anything.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's what I was going to say Spend a little bit of money up front, even though it's an uncertain.
Speaker 1:It's really hard for guys, especially when it's uncertain and they don't know, to spend a little bit of money when they don't know where the money's going to be coming from or what it is.
Speaker 1:But you can save so much money with a coach, with a financial analyst certified divorce financial analyst with a certified divorce mortgage lender, with a therapist like, get all that done, all this stuff, the little bit of money you're going to spend with Tammy, with me, with whomever, is going to pay huge dividends, sometimes hundreds of I can attest to hundreds of thousands of dollars, if I would have put my team together and didn't spend over the next decade hundreds of thousands of dollars having to be back in court and fighting over stuff. Right, you can literally save hundreds of thousands of dollars by just spending a little bit of money upfront and getting Tammy on board, getting a report even if it's just getting a report from her, so that you can go forward, so that you know 100% you've put yourself in the position, whatever position that is, you might have options, but the position that is going to best suit you and your family. So, tammy, where can the listeners get a hold of you? What's the website? What's the best way to contact you?
Speaker 2:Sure, so I'm with the Divorce Resource Center of Colorado and so we are at truly look that up, the Divorce Resource Center of Colorado and it's wwwdrcofcoloradocom.
Speaker 1:Okay, and just to be clear, you do work across the country, depending on what it is, but you own the Divorce Resource Center of Colorado, but she's nationwide. So, wherever you're at in the country, or probably really in North America, because we've got lots of Canadian listeners too get a hold of Tammy, get the help that you need, that you deserve. This is one of the biggest ones, besides the attorney, besides the coach. Get a hold of Tammy and get a plan put together. Tammy, thanks so much for being here.
Speaker 1:I sincerely appreciate what you do and maybe we'll have you back on and talk, maybe in some more specifics about, I think, the retirement one I'd like to talk about, like run some specific numbers. So people, really we could talk for hours, but people could know really when they like we're not kidding, it's tens of thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands of dollars. We're not kidding, we're not just saying that to drum up business. We don't want you to lose money, we want your family to be set in a good place going forward. It's true, it is the absolute truth. So maybe we'll have you back and we'll chat some more.
Speaker 2:Thank you. I've really enjoyed speaking with you today and I hope it's been of help to your listeners.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. Thanks so much.
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