The Divorced Dadvocate: Divorce Support For Dads
The Divorced Dadvocate: Divorce Support For Dads is a weekly podcast designed specifically for fathers navigating divorce. It addresses the unique challenges men face and offers practical guidance, emotional support, and real-life insights to help dads survive — and ultimately thrive — during and after divorce.
Each episode combines honest conversation, personal stories, and action-oriented advice to help listeners rebuild confidence, create healthy co-parenting strategies, manage finances, navigate court complexities, and heal emotionally. Since launching in 2020, the show has become a trusted resource and supportive community for divorced and divorcing dads.
*Become a community member and access full episodes and additional MEMBERS ONLY content: https://thedivorceddadvocate.com/membership-tiers/*
DISCLAIMER: The purpose of this podcast is to inform, not influence. It is not a substitute for professional care or advice by a qualified professional. The host, as well as guests who speak on this podcast, express their own opinions, experience, and conclusions, and The Divorced Dadvocate podcast & website neither endorses nor opposes any particular views discussed here.
The Divorced Dadvocate: Divorce Support For Dads
279 - What If The Bravest Thing Is To Keep Showing Up?
Some stories punch through the fog. Palmer’s does. He grew up inside a decade of high-conflict divorce, became the “targeted child” of severe alienation, and reached the edge of despair—then found a way back. Today he sits across from tweens and teens as a therapist, turning hard-won insight into practical tools that help kids feel safe, seen, and strong even when the adults around them are at war.
We dig into the subtle ways alienation teaches kids it’s unsafe to love both parents and the everyday moves that reverse it. Palmer shows how to respond when your child repeats a hostile script, how to validate feelings without validating lies, and how to use calm curiosity to keep the door open: “Tell me more. Where did you hear that? What do you think?” We talk about the “long game” of trust, why one attuned parent can buffer long-term harm, and how steady presence beats the most artful parenting plan. You’ll hear research that matters—father involvement predicting outcomes, safe-base parenting supporting brain development—and simple practices you can use this week.
Palmer's website: https://ownyourjourneycoaching.com/
Care For The Kids website: https://careforthekid.com/about/
Join our Signal Channel: https://shorturl.at/8yqTb
Join The Divorce Dadvocate Membership Community - FULL Episodes - Live Meetings – FREE Workshops & Courses – Private Discussion Groups & MORE! - https://thedivorceddadvocate.com/membership-tiers/
How Are You Adjusting To Your Divorce? Find out in this quiz - http://www.thedivorceddadvocate.com/divorce-quiz.html
*FREE Dads Guide To Divorce* How to survive and thrive during and after divorce: http://www.dadsguidetodivorce.com
Don't suffer in silence! Get relief from the pain and confusion of your divorce and schedule your FREE, No Obligation Coaching Consultation - schedule a time directly into my schedule at www.TalkWithJude.com.
Join other divorced dads who have experienced or are experiencing divorce in this FREE Divorced Dads Online Meetup Group - https://www.meetup.com/Divorced-Dads-Meetup-Group/
Other Resources:
The Divorced Dadvocate Website - http://www.TheDivorcedDadvocate.com
The Divorced Dadvocate YouTube Channel - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GeSwx-F8KK4&list=PLT4HyN5ishYJznK51205ESxGZ2d19YkBp
The Divorced Dadvocate Podcast - https://thedivorceddadvocate.buzzsprout.com/
Divorced Dads Online Meetup Group - https://www.meetup.com/Divorced-Dads-Meetup-Group/
The Divorced Dadvocate Facebook Group - https://www.facebook.com/thedivorceddadvocate/
Hello and welcome to the show. Thank you so much for tuning in again this week. I sincerely appreciate it. And I I know every week I'm very excited, but this week I am tremendously excited about our guest and our conversation today. Been trying for a couple of actually a few months probably to get him onto the onto the show. And we finally have him here now. But before I introduce him and we get into our conversation and our topic, I just want to remind you to visit thedivorced advocate.com. Check out all the resources we have for you guys, including the divorce quiz, which is going to give you a great gauge of where you're at in your divorce compared to thousands of others who have gone through it. You'll get some immediate results in your inbox that'll help you make that decision and or analyze where you're at. But then you'll also have the opportunity for us to review that and talk about what's going well and what you can work on. So check that out and all the other resources at thedivorcedadvocate.com. Okay, my guest today describes himself as having been, quote unquote, that kid. You know, the one he broke rules for the fun of it and rebelled hard against his parents. In his own life, he's had many seasons of feeling aimless, confused, and even hopeless about the direction he was headed. After a big interruption in life, he realized his true passion, having meaningful conversations and helping people find their path. He has since made it his life's work to help tweens and teens navigate the difficult path of adolescence, helping them make better decisions and take ownership of their journey. Please welcome Palmer Skinesky.
SPEAKER_01:Palmer, how are you doing? Doing great, Mr. Jude. Thank you so much for sticking with me and making the scheduling happen. I appreciate it.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, well, you're a busy, busy young man with a new family and school and work and everything. You're there's very few people as busy as I am, but I think you're probably one of them, your mom as well. And I I did want to I wanted to give the audience some background about how I know you. And you might not even know some of this, but I met your mom 13 years ago. Uh, and and Palmer's mom is uh also a licensed family and marriage therapist, and she was running parenting, love and logic parenting classes, as a matter of fact. So I met her 13 years ago when I was going through my divorce, and I took one of her love and logic parenting classes. And since I've taken, I think, another two or three of them. And so I just think the work that she has done over the years is absolutely tremendous as well. And now I know that you guys are are working together. So so I've actually known your mom for about 12, 13, 13 years now, uh, which would have put you like kind of in the years where what we're gonna talk about today, right? And and and kind of on in kind of your journey. So tell us to start, tell us a little bit about yourself, and then we're gonna jump in a little bit about the work that that you and you and your mom are doing and the program that you've created.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, well, I love it. I was thinking back 12 or 13 years would have been a season of life where it was about as bad as it could be. And I imagine if you had asked her then, if her and I would be doing what we're doing now, and if I would be in the position I'm in now, I am sure she would have just laughed and thought you were talking about an alternate universe where it's the complete opposite because it was not good then. And so I'm sure we'll get there, but to kind of share that for myself.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I remember her talking glowingly about her family and her and and and her and her children through all of the all of the classes, and she would share, and so she is really the consummate professional in her she and in how she handled herself because I I've knowing now, right, uh what was what we what she was going through, and and I've I've learned a little bit more. I've also had the opportunity to listen to you and her talk. You guys do a talking engagement. I've actually had my daughters go to the parent information network at the the school district, and they've listened to you and and her do your presentation together. So, but knowing that's amazing that story now and looking back, it's just remarkable uh the the the professional that she is and the and the work that she's done. So yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, no, I mean I think that's one of the things I'm sure we'll get to. But I think it's that heart she had that even in the worst of it, when I was saying things that no parent should ever hear from their kid, she was still seeing us with a lens of love and compassion and really brought that same energy home. Obviously, you know, probably a little bit less nice to us than she was with people taking her parenting classes, but that would be to be expected, I would say. But yeah. So now I I mean, there's obviously so many answers to that question. But in the context of getting to support kiddos and families, I spent all about 10 years of my childhood going through really high conflict divorce between my mom and my dad. And you know, at first it wasn't anything particularly crazy, but it got to the point where it was so challenging and it was so hard between myself and my parents, and particularly my dad, brought me in as sort of his targeted child. And the way that I saw my mom was so aggressive and so intense, and it drove me to just the darkest places a person can go where at any one day I was not sure if I'd make it through the next day or if I was going to end up killing myself. And that was just such a big part of my story then, which now was what it feels like work now because hopefully most kids are in that position. But there's just such a pain that comes with divorce, and honestly, I think just a complicatedness to navigating the teen years that I now get to try to be the person that I wish I had when I was going through those years. Because whether it's trying to go from bad to good or good to amazing, I think there's so much room to grow in life, and it makes me so happy to get to watch kiddos do that.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. And so now you're how old? Twenty-seven. Twenty-seven. And you're a candidate for being a licensed family and marriage therapist, correct? Yes, yes, indeed.
SPEAKER_01:Okay. I finished at Northwestern in this past June. I've been doing work with kiddos the last five years now.
SPEAKER_00:Okay. And so, like at the the intro said, you went through these difficult and challenges, time challenging times. And I I think you're we maybe we'll touch on it. It it depends, but you had some some significance, some significant stuff go on and some significant issues in your teen years when you were going through that. Talk to us a little bit about that, because I just want to, I what I would like the audience to be impressed upon, or what I would like to impress upon the audience is where you were, what you were doing in those teen years, and the relationship that you had that you alluded to with your with your mom and dad, and now how it's come to just, I don't want to say full circle, but it's come to the point where you're doing the work, and we're gonna talk about the program that your mom and and you have put together. You're doing this work to help queens and teens, which is absolutely remarkable. Take us a little bit through that kind of that journey, please.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, of course. It's trying to think how to capture that without burning up our entire time together.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, we've only got 53 minutes left.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, perfect, perfect to capture it all. Yeah, I think if I go back to the parts that usually seem to rise up when I think on this story, is I was eight or nine when my parents got divorced. And at the time, I didn't know necessarily the full extent of that, but I definitely understood the weight because even at that age, I was starting to talk about wanting to hurt myself. And I would just talk about, I would, you know, I would want to hurt myself, but in ways that didn't necessarily make sense. I would talk about wanting to put myself in the oven and do these other, you know, kind of like morbid things. And looking back now, I just feel so sad because clearly it was just a kid that was in so much pain that was just trying to take on the weight of his parents' marriage and the conflict that was going on, and that was just never going to be sustainable. And so that was kind of a I would say the suicide piece or suicidality piece was so such a consistent theme through many, many years of my life. And I would say from eight to twelve or thirteen, the progression between my parents built. My dad, he is my dad, I still love him, but there are still significant challenges there and barriers between the two of us. So at the time I never realized that. But he was what I think we would probably call a pretty severe alienator, where I was his targeted child, my mom was the targeted parent, and he would use me as a weapon against her. And he would not be the person that you would ever think is some big alienator. And even to this day, I don't necessarily hold him fully accountable. And so as I talk about it, I just want to do so with a level of grace and compassion for what drove him to have the challenges that he did. But for many years, my grades started to decline. And I have got a folder somewhere in my office where it is essentially the Palmer Fun folder where it's all my suspensions, my detentions, my report cards that were C's, D, sometimes F's, where it was nothing in there that would indicate anything but a pretty grim future for a kid. And so for many years, my dad would fill our heads with narratives of, you know, anger and it was very subtle towards my mom. But that would drive me to wanting to hurt myself or kill myself. I honestly think more days than I didn't. I think that I spent more nights in bed wanting to escape the pain than I did feeling any sense of excitement or freedom towards life. And I just felt alone. I just I never had anyone turn towards. My mom was just swept up in the divorce doing what she could to survive this consistent barrage for my dad. And my dad was using me. And so while I, you know, maybe felt like he was in theory or on paper there for me, it really wasn't. I was there for him when he needed me to be there for him. I was kind of forced to carry his emotions, and so it was just a lot of years of being a scared kid who didn't have anyone to turn to and try to figure it out on their own. And I think a 10-year-old, 12-year-old trying to figure out all of that by themselves is not gonna go well. And it didn't. Very, very clearly did not go well.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. And I had go ahead.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, go ahead. I got I was gonna jump into the piece of kind of where that all intersected, which is where things really changed for me. And that's when I was 15 years old. My dad ended up losing he was on a bunch of different contempt charges for no contact orders, non-disparagement clauses, and just kept breezing through those because he believed that he was fighting the good fight, standing up for us, but ultimately it was his own agenda being served for his own, you know, whatever the reasons may be. And he ended up losing custody. It was at first supervised, and then it was no custody at all. But he would do things, you know, like bias burner phones, he would meet us on the way to school and kind of have us go down, truly go down alleyways to talk and to meet us and we continue to encourage us to meet him where he was at and the narrative and the world that the story that he was telling. And then it got so bad to the point that I I wanted, I I had no love for my mom. My life felt like it had to be one without her because I saw her as such a threat to my physical and mental safety that there was times where I really did wish she was no longer alive because my brain was like it cannot comprehend the damage and evil she's caused based off what my dad had told me. And as a kid, I just didn't understand I didn't know how to sift through the noise. And so he ended up being sent to jail by the judge. And then a couple days later, I was sent away to a treatment center where I was gone for the first place was seven or first place was five weeks, and the second place was seven weeks. And that was essentially to try and get me a fresh start to catch my breath, to remove me from the system I was in and see if maybe there was still a kid inside of there that could be saved from the pain that he was put through. I would say that was a pretty big turning point that led me to where I am.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Yeah, for sure. And I know that a lot of the dads that are listening are dealing with with alienation. And I like I mentioned to you, it's probably one of the top two or three things that guys come to the community looking for some support around. And and we and we talk in detail. I don't know we're gonna we're not gonna get into the clinical side of stuff of what the alienator's doing and what their mental state is and how they truly believe what they're doing is is is right, and and how you as a as a as a kid are are protecting yourself in in you know in in distancing yourself from the alienated parent. We're not gonna get into that, but but you do have a really powerful quote on on your site that says the single most important factor in my adjustment was how safe or unsafe they made me feel about loving both of them. Can can you unpack that for me a little bit? And what is making a child safe feels unsafe to love both parents actually look or sound like?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I mean that's definitely a great one to highlight. It's such a sad question that that's in consideration, but and parents so often would never think that that's what's on the table. And I was gonna give an ad to like my dad would say the words, I hope you boys love your mom. And then they would turn, and then in the same sentence, he would also say, but she's evil and trying to put me in jail, and she's the reason that this person was killed and would go down this whole other path. And so it's such a challenging thing for my brain to comprehend. But in the terms of that specific quote, I think that the way that a parent can make a kid feel unsafe to love both parents is if they do things along those lines, but even more subtly, a lot of the time, where they imply that the other parent has wronged them, that they've done something wrong to the kid, or but by the other kid loving the other parent, it might be offensive or it might be hard for the other parent to hold. And sometimes parents will, you know, a kid will come home from a visit and they'll be like, I had such a fun time with mom or dad or whoever the parent is. And they'll be like, oh, oh, like how'd they, how'd they pay for that? What'd they do? I didn't know they were gonna try and do that with you. I thought we were gonna do that together. And they'll just do these subtle little things that sort of convince the kid's brain that, oh, I shouldn't talk about my love or the connection I have with the other parent because it makes the parent I'm with right now maybe dysregulated. Maybe my attachment becomes insecure with them, maybe they don't pour into me the way that I'd want them to, with big warm open arms. And so it's just little things that to a kid essentially says, I shouldn't talk about the love I have for the other half of my parental unit, which, as you can imagine, is very unnatural for us to do.
SPEAKER_00:Right. And and so I I guess the the message to to the parents that are being alienated, which which a lot of them are are listening, is no matter how difficult and challenging it is, or how much the child might be acting out, your kiddo might be acting out against you, you have to separate what you have to separate the challenge that you're having with your ex from the relationship that you're having with with your kiddo. Because you because it'll if if you don't, it's gonna have a negative impact, even if you are the one that's that's that's alienating. And now your story is a I hear lots of horrible, horrible stories. Yours is a horrible story too, right? Like of extreme, extreme alienation when when when a parent actually even has to go to go to jail, and then you're literally brainwashed, right? You're you're literally brainwashed against that parent. And and it doesn't mean that you're you don't love that parent. And that's the the thing that I try to emphasize with lots of the dads is even if they're not seeing you, etc., that it's not it's it is literally self-protection. And can we talk a little bit about that because and and maybe you can talk about that in that context of how how they can help you or help their kiddo who is is feeling unsafe, who is having to have an adaptive behavior in their life in order to survive life with one one parent and be able to set be able to separate that and make you feel safe. There was a lot there. So no, no.
SPEAKER_01:You you redirect us as we need to. But I I think it's really I love that you highlight almost the heart posture of not anger and you know frustration with the kid when they do these things, but almost out of a place of like, oh, I understand that this is not you choosing to act this way, it's your brain saying that we need to survive. I think that empathetic heart towards that, those behaviors are so unbelievably important, not just because it's what we need to have, you know, be accepted by our parents, but also if you don't take that heart so often you then reinforce the narratives that they're being told. Like if I'm told that my mom is a crazy person, and then I go to her house and I'm like, dad said you're a crazy person. And he goes, and she goes, Oh my gosh, your dad's a, you know, like butt but like blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I'm like, yeah, you are crazy. Like he is so right that you're crazy. It's so easy to reinforce those. And so I think that heart of like, my kid doesn't want this. Like my kid is in the middle of it, they're being targeted, they're being attacked. I need to be the rock for them that they can come to where I can hold the weight that they're trying to expel the pain in their life, and I can receive it because that will change so much for them if they can feel safe with you. And, you know, that's very hard if your kid's saying, I hate you, I hope you die. Their parents weigh better, I don't want to do anything, have anything to do with you. It's so, so hard. But that kid is, I honestly believe, like one inch deep, just a sad, sweet, precious little soul in there that wants to be loved and comforted and to be free of the burden that his parents are putting, or you know, one or both parents are putting onto them.
SPEAKER_00:Right. And you just and and and you don't have the capabilities to access the the knowledge or understanding because you're a kid. And so you like you, I like the example you said, just like one inch below the surface is this precious, tender, vulnerable, loving child that's had to to to to create this, you know, toughness above that and and act out against one of the one of the parents. And you know, having been well, from the parents' perspective, that's unbelievably painful, right? Obviously. Um, but also I I've been I've I was an alienated uh child as as well. It's it is so confusing as a as a child because you just don't know, and you look to your parents for this is what parents are, right? They're they're helping guide you mentally, emotionally, helping you learn what feel how to manage your feel, like all this stuff. And when something like this is happening, there's at least one of the one of the parents that is that is not doing that and is actually creating damage to them. So really, if you're the alienated parent, it is so, so important to try to understand where you'll try to understand where the the kiddos are coming from. And it's and you're not gonna get that answer from them, right? Like you're gonna have to do the work outside with your therapist, with your coach, studying and reading and everything else, so that you can bring yourself to a place to to create that safe space. Talk to that a little bit, and then if you can add like maybe some specific ways that that a parent, the alienated parent can make it safe for for a child that's even even a child that might be lashing out, like you said, and saying, I hate you. How do you make a safe space for a kid that says, I hate you, I wish you were dead?
SPEAKER_01:Right? Okay, yeah. I mean, I think that's me so important. And will you just the the first piece of that question, just so I don't forget it, is what? You remind me?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah. Help help us to help us to understand understand that that dynamic really about what the what the kid is, what the kiddos are going through, like that they're just they don't they don't have the the capacity, the capabilities to they're they're looking to you and the other parent for for guidance through this. And unfortunately, one of those is actually doing damage and making it like creating difficulties and and damaging and creating trauma. And so they so uh because of that, it's even more important that the alienating parent show up in an e- and it's unfair, it's completely unfair, right? But that alien parent has to show up in an even more loving and more safe way, and how can they do that?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, no, I mean I yeah, present clarification, and that's something that touches on the attachment theory that drives us, and I don't want to get necessary too too clinically into it, but it is almost impossible to avoid it, to understand what's going on in the kid's brain. Because kids, we we are driving as human beings to have an attachment to at least somebody, and that it can become a something. If we have no attachment to people, we attach ourselves to other things, and that can be things, you know, like alcohol, weed, substances of any sort, it can be technology, it can be un of the relationships. We will attach to one thing one way or another. And so for kiddos, obviously their natural innate attachment desire is to the parents. It's to mom or it's to mom and dad. And in that situation, when there is this parent that's pushing this negative narrative, the kid on some level I do believe knows that this is happening, that they know that that might not be true. But as they hear that, they have to weigh, well, this parent is maybe some of these things that are bad. But if what if it's true what they're saying, the other parent is really unsafe. A huge hazard to me, could not be around them, be even worse. And so then they end up having to say, I'm gonna forsake the parent who I think might be really evil based off of what this alienating parent is saying. Then they get stuck in the bucket with a person who's likely not mentally super stable because they're saying things that are not based on reality. They're trying to use children to reach their objective, which is of course inappropriate and unhealthy and destructive for them. So this kid is then left on an island to say, I either have to pick the person that might not be bad, but I'm hearing bad things, or the person that is being toxic and convincing me that the other parent's bad, which they will pick the person that is maybe more safe because they're not hearing things like they're evil, they're out to get us, they're trying to destroy our family and purpose apart. So they pick the alienating parent most of the time. Just because if you think your parents are evil, you're not gonna pick them. And so then they're stuck with them. And I think that's where parents need to be really intentional to not take it too personally, to because if they go, oh my gosh, my kid hates me. Again, I'm telling you, it is usually not that deep. It's these narratives that are shallow, rarely based in truth. Usually it's like 10 or 15% of the lie is true, but then the rest of it is just crap. It's just absolute garbage. But the kid hasn't had the skills, as you've mentioned, to sift through that pain and what they're hearing. And so as I kind of pivot into what can parents do, I think that's where you mentioned it perfectly. Go do your own work, make sure that you have a base that kids can land on. Because if they come to you with this, these you know, fireballs of comments and of an approach and an energy to you, they're gonna burn the house down. You're not gonna do it, you're gonna get reactive, and again, you're gonna reinforce the narrative. And so I think once you've done the work, that's amazing. That's so important. But I think, and this is it's honestly, it's not that hard in theory, but it is hard to put into practice, which is to be able to hold that space in a really healthy way, where they come to you and they say, Well, mom said, you know, we'll just stay with the mom example. Let's say, mom said that you are spending money, you're not paying for the things that we need. That's why we can't have nice things at her house. And, you know, you're over here going on dates or taking trips, or you're just living the best life you possibly can, the bachelor life. And for a kid that's just gonna just feel so hurtful. If they hear that, it's like, my dad doesn't care enough about me to make sure that I have the cleats I need for practice or that we can go on a trip with mom, or we can do, you know, pay for my school fees, because it's just these small things. And so one of the things a parent can do, and you have to make sure you're intentional to not reverse the alienation and just do it right back at them, is say, oh, can you share more? What do you mean when you say that? And like, you know, like where did you hear that? And when they go to mom's house, you don't go, oh, well, mom's a liar. You go, oh, okay, well, what do you think? Like, do you think is that is that really what you think is happening? And you can create space for them to share. And again, it can be easy for that to, you know, based off how you respond, how you look, if you're giving them the stink eye or whatever it is, in their own head, it will do reverse alienation. So you have to again be so grounded and just assume that you are collecting data from your kid to understand the perspective, but in reality, you're helping them unpack what is likely this heavy load of lies that they're trying to carry. So I'd say that that's I don't know, one you can do every single time. And then can I go on another one, another kind of point? So another piece of it is learning to help them differentiate between like what is true and what is not true. And I think that you can do this one of the things that mom and I talk about is you can even bring in things as subtle as movies that have weird twists on them to help the kids begin to see things where it's like, oh, I thought it was one way, but it's that way. And you can kind of reinforce that idea that maybe what we hear isn't always true. That can be just so helpful. And I think that if you bring in consistent patterns and consistent themes of stability in your life, but also reminding them that maybe one story isn't always the full reality, it is, it seems silly, it really does. But then as they get older, you can kind of tie things back. And this is again, this might seem dramatic, but even be like, oh, like remember that movie we watched where it's like you hear this one thing and it's not true. Sometimes I feel like that can happen with what we hear from family members. And again, you can't be like from mom, but you can just say in general, and you can help build this foundation for them where they are building a mindset that's independent. So it's not just your words saying mom's wrong and mom saying dad's wrong. Because if they do that, the kid will not build an internal regulation system that can do anything for them in the long term, but latch on to whatever narrative they hear. I'll pause that.
SPEAKER_00:Right. I love that second one. I'd never heard of that, and I think it's tremendous because of what you just finished, which is it it builds long-term the ability for them to have discernment and try to work through this themselves, which as parents, our ultimate goal is to raise healthy, functioning adults, right? So it's not that we want we we need them, although it's it would be nice and preferable for them to like us, right? Or be best friends with them or or whatnot, but but that their long-term, their long-term or best interest is making sure that they're healthy and functioning. And so by doing what you're describing, as hard as it is for us to have to do that, because it's much easier to say, oh, really, like you said, she's lying or or whatever, or call it out or do whatever. That's not that that might suffice in the moment and that might make you feel better, but it's not going to help them. And and if we want to to try, because all we can really do is attempt to mitigate what the other parent is doing to whatever st whatever extent we can. And that mitigation, at least in my mind, from what you described, is it's it's it's not immediate, right? We're we're setting it, we're planting a seed that hopefully or or will really, because like I was alienated, I came around, I figured it out, I understand the dynamic. A lot, I would say a majority of kids do figure that out. This is a this is a tool, what you just described, and a skill that can really help to facilitate that process for them when they get older. Is that accurate?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, and that and that it's the long game. And that's the part that can feel so hard because I'm like, I wait, you want I want my kid to come back next week and no longer think this. And it's it's so sad. And you would think that because it's so unfair, there would be a quick, easy fix to reliviate your pain, but or alleviate your pain, unfortunately, there is not. And it is this thing where you are just hoping that maybe for their high school, middle school years, they might not see it that way. But as they become, you know, maybe 17, 18, they go, Oh my goodness. And I have a client right now who was alienated pretty intensely, and the mom did a pretty good job, struggled some, but to hold herself, to be grounded, to show up and be loving. And this kid now as an adult is like, wait, what are you talking about? Like, dad said what? Like that's what that's what I used to believe in. Now he's going back to his mom, being like, I want to have a relationship with you. Now he lives with her full time, and he just sees her as a person who was his rock, even though the mom would have been like, My kid hates me. She kept to that consistency, and that's you know, so my mom didn't. So that is so so important and so true that it's a seed, and it can take years. So that's hard.
SPEAKER_00:So very hard. What was for you, what was that that turning point where maybe that that seed started to sprout and you start and and you start you you started to shift? And is that is there is there anything as a as an alienated parent that we can do to to help facilitate that?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. I love that question because it really is like you know, one of the things where hopefully we mitigate it so alienation never happens. That's ideal. That's parents being super intentional from the get-go, marrying someone that's not gonna potentially do that down the road, but that is oftentimes not the thing that we're fully thinking about when we're young and in love and finding our life partners. And so when you are in that position, I believe one of the best things you can do is to find somebody that is gonna be a part of this kid's life that's based in, you know, is grounded, is smart, is not gonna necessarily serve one parent or the other, but is a pretty solid foundation and just objective reality to be there in that kid's life. Because for me, when I went to the treatment center in Utah, it was some of the probably best, best, you know, psychologists and therapists and psychiatrists in the entire state of Utah. But the person that made all the difference for me was a random worker there who was essentially just a hired body to make sure kids didn't attack each other named Alex. And Alex was someone that loved on me and he poured into me. And he's like, You're here for reasons that I don't fully understand because it sounds like you just have a really crazy home. You don't have a super, you know, significant neurological deficit besides being, you know, a little bit crazy myself, mostly ADHD neurodiversity stuff. But he was like, You just seem like you're a kiddo who's been lost and needs some love. And you know, I'm gonna say those exact words, but he just poured into me, he showed up for me, and he helped me find a sense of foot or find a footing with a sense of reality that wasn't based off my dad or based off my mom. But he was like, I care about you, and I care about you having the best reality you can have. And there was one day that he read my he read my file and he was like, Palmer, I think that there's parts of the story that you've told me that I don't know how true they are. Because if it comes from dad, it's one thing. If it comes from mom, it always feels Bias. But if you find a person that is like a trusting individual in this kid's life, it will mean so much more to them, at least in my opinion, than you ever trying to say the magic words to convince them that mom or dad isn't the big alienator. And so I still to this day, I'm so grateful for Alex. And you know, while not all of my work is focused on alienation, alienation, mitigation. It is always such a treat to get to be there for kiddos who are in an alienated situation where I can come in and be like, I'm not here for mom, I'm not here for dad. I'm here for you. And if they tell me things, I'll take into consideration. I'll tell you what they tell me because I want you to know that you are first on my list of people that, you know, you can come to me and my trust belongs to you and not to your parents. And just to get to watch kids loosen and melt and just get to be honest with me and not think they have to carry such a burden. So when the day comes that they go, What do you think of this, Palmer? And I can be like, I think maybe it's not as true as you thought it was. It to me is, I don't know, it's the greatest role I can play in the kids' life.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, that's that's amazing. I was going to ask, do you feel like that person can be a therapist? Because I know that sometimes therapists don't see through some of that, some of that stuff and don't understand the dynamic because it is very, very nuanced. It is very very challenging uh to to to pick up on. And so so I I I like I like that. And you're saying it needs to be a a third party, somebody other than the parents, whether that's a therapist, which which would be great, a therapist that can does understand the the situation and and and the relational dynamic, but it can be somebody outside of that, a friend or a family member or somebody else that truly just has their best interest in mind and wants to point things out to them and have them say, Hey, have you considered this?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. And I, yes, definitely. And that's where you have to be intentional with who you pick, because if my mom picked my aunt, my dad convinced me that my cousins and uncles on that side or aunts and uncles were all a part of her tribe. And I'm sure if I was on my you know as my dad's side, he's not gonna have anyone in his life trying to tell me that, you know, maybe I'm being alienated because they're hearing what my dad is saying. And so that's where it's hard because again, like you want to be able to find someone that is just like easy, accessible, affordable, just naturally cares about the family. But again, if it's anyone in the family system, the kid can usually kind of buy into one of those five or 10% lies that the alienating parent says that, oh, if they say that, that's just because they're on this other person's team. And so I think if you can find like a sports coach, anyone that is as far removed as you can, but still being invested in the kid's life is very important because I can, my mom, her whole side of the family, I wrote off as a part of the evil tribe that wanted to hurt me. And all the people on my dad's side said, your mom is evil and she is trying to hurt you. And so that's where it's, I don't know, it's a nuance. And you are correct. Some therapists don't see it, they don't account for it, and they might buy into one parent's story. Even my dad's attorneys, hopefully, you know, I don't think they're listening to this. But I met them at a conference recently where they got to listen to our talk and they were just like, we had no idea that for those two years your dad was lying to us, and they were so smart, they were so smart, so capable, but they still can get brainwashed. And so it's just so important that you aren't just picking willy-nilly, but you are like, this person needs to be able to weather the storms and be there for my kid even under attack. And that's one I feel very passionate about that piece of it. But I know that we got more to get to.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, that's that's that's tremendous, tremendous advice. And and I'm the on the note we always talk in the community that attorneys are very smart at knowing and understanding the legal system. They're not they're not therapists, they don't understand relational dynamics, or at least they do to some extent. But when it gets into high conflict, when it gets into mental emotional issues, personality, that's where they they just don't. We need a whole nother court system to deal with that, frankly. But that's a that's a whole nother that's a whole nother topic that that that that we could talk about, at least from a kid's perspective, too, right? Actually, I'll add one more thing to that piece, if that's okay.
SPEAKER_01:One real quick thing. Um right. So with my program at Northwestern, when we were going through all these different classes and stuff, it was so interesting and honestly super concerning, right? There's this idea of like a therapist is a therapist. And it's like, you know, if I'm my kids having a hard time, they seem to go to a therapist. And it's something like, you know, you have you need to go to the doctor, you have to go to the doctor. But if you have a foot problem, you don't just go to a person that's you know, an ophthalmologist to check your eyes out. You go to a specific person with a niche in that field. And for therapy, anyone that's listening or anyone that's encouraging other people to find therapists, you have to be so intentional because most of my peers, they had no idea what alienation was. They had no idea what it was to be a kid of divorce. These are people, it's one of the best, one of the best programs there's in the country that are family systemic trained therapists. And they would still leave that program saying, Palmer, I have no idea what any of that stuff is, which is crazy because if you go search for a therapist, you might be like, oh, they'll be good. And if those people don't have the awareness, they can so easily be misled by a really convincing narcissistic type personality. So I just I hide that because I've seen it real time.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, exactly. And and I always encourage the the dads that are listening to to seek out therapy, but it's just like any any other profession. You've got you've got some that are very specific to what they what they do, and and then you also have some that are very, very good, and you also have some that are very, very bad. Also, so it's just like it's just like any profession. So you have to be, you can't just be content with, oh yeah, my kids in therapy. Like you need to be involved, you need to understand what's going on, you need to, you need to know your part of it so that you can have a communication with therapist and and and be able to understand all the dynamic uh and you need to be intimately involved with what is going on in in therapy to the extent that you're allowed to and and that it's healthy for uh for for your for your kiddo. So just saying, yeah, he's in therapy or she's in therapy is just not not enough. And I know the guys, I know that I know the dads listening uh to this to this show are the ones that that are involved, but sometimes we just use it as or I've I've heard it used as well. They're in therapy, and then I start asking more questions, or I get the other guys on the other end of the spectrum where they're completely alienated and and they say, well, I had them in therapy, and then the therapist was siding with my ex. And then we went through this whole, well, we they need to make their own choice, and they're like 12. Like they can't make their own decision at 12, like what parent they're supposed to live with. They 25, their brain's not even developed till 25. It's a it's an insane, it's an insane proposition to to do it, but but it's but it does happen, which takes me to kind of to my next point or my next question for for you, which is there are and and and we've we've kind of focused in on to on to the the the alienation thing, I guess. So like I said, I never know I where these are gonna go, but I I think it's I think it's important because a lot of I feel like the lot of the damage that I see that I've experienced, what I think you have described, comes from a parent. And now it might not be alienation per se, but a parent that has some mental emotional issue or a personality disorder or something like that. So so talking about this stuff, I I feel is is really important from the your from your perspective as a kid that's gone through this, has dealt with that. Obviously, one of your parents did have something like that. I I had a parent like that. So that so that the dads really really know that they're not crazy because the the part the part that is really hard as as a as a the parent that's being alienated or the one that has is you know more mentally emotionally healthy. You're you're still not 100% healthy if you were in a relationship with this person, right? That's the other thing I tell guys you're not a saint. It takes two to tango, there's a dynamic here, you participated in it. Um so but you you might be more mentally emotionally healthy. But but it's it's it's it's so hard for them to cut through that and and and figure it out. So my my question to you is the the parent that might be dealing with that issue, or the the the alienated parent, there's there's two different arguments around, and this is especially if they're been they're being significantly alienated, where the point to the point where they're the the kids are brainwashed. Like you said, I I totally didn't, I thought my mom was evil, I didn't, her family was, I didn't want to be there, I was refusing, or or whatever else. Is it better or or what is the best strategy around how to handle that? To continue to fight for time with that with that kid, and to have have a relationship with them and and on and being around them and having an environment there they can it still still, even if it's forced, be around you. Or the other argument I've heard sometimes is let it be, because it causes more difficulty and strife, and at some point they're going to come back around, or there's gonna be an opportunity that's gonna arise, and then you can do this. Now, I've got my opinion, I'm not gonna share that right now, but from because you've got such a tremendous and unique background of having experienced it and and now studied it and understand it now, having your own family, like like what are give me some feedback on on that.
SPEAKER_01:Well, that's a good question, and it's so hard because I definitely understand the both both of the beliefs, and you know what I say, my opinion. I couldn't speak to any specific studies that come to mind off the bat, but I would say that it's in my mind better to continue the contact, to continue the parenting time, and just go absolutely ham on everything you can do to learn how to be amazing at holding space and doing those things. Because one of the only ways you're really gonna fight those lies is by acting them out and living the way that is counter to the narrative that they're hearing. Because eventually that's you know, that that's all the kids gonna hear. At least it's gonna is like factual and truthful. And they're like, mom says dad's evil, but I'm watching dad be so nice and be so kind and really not scare me and do these things. And so I would put in the bucket for sure of fight for it, but don't just fight to have time and then just sit there and argue and get mad at your kid for being alienated. Like fight for it and be like, I'm here for you, and I'm ready to take the punches because you're my kid and I love you dearly and show up for when they need you. So it's hard. It's definitely harder.
SPEAKER_00:It is really, really hard. I'm in agreement with what you just described is that you need to continue to fight for your kiddo because my experience growing up was my dad didn't. And so that brought a whole nother level of issues of abandonment, of not feeling like I was worthy, etc., because he he left me to this person who had was clear to anybody that had any sense in and around our family had significant issues. And obviously he'd know it too, because that's why he divorced her, right? So so leaving a kid to it, though the way I describe it sometimes with guys is you're you're you wouldn't you wouldn't leave a child that is being physically abused, like right outside your window, or with somebody that you know is going to physically abuse them. Why are you gonna leave them now? Why are you gonna leave them with somebody that's doing it mentally, emotionally? Now, part of it is you you don't have a choice because of parenting time, but if you can limit that by having them with you, even if it is hell and they're acting out and everything else, that is way better than just allowing it to happen and allowing the abuse and the trauma to to build up and continue. So so I think we're in agreement on that is fight. The other thing is we're dads, and we're supposed to be fighting for this. And I know and and I know it happens on both sides, right? But we're addressing the dads that are listening tonight. You're your dad. You're supposed to be fighting this fight. That is what we do as as dads, and this is part of how we have to show up. And I know you're a you're a young dad, you're a young dad too. And and and so I I just don't subscribe to the you know, the they will come back. They will come back like I did. I feel that it took me much longer, well into my 30s, before I really figure stuff out, right? And then in and and until I was married and had my own kids, right?
SPEAKER_01:Until I can do, I mean, that's so many amazing. I mean, those those are like the years where it's like that's like one of the best years to be a parent is during those years. I I completely agree. And I think that the piece around dads showing up to fight is so important. And it's one of the things that, you know, I I believe it also demonstrates to your kids like we do the things that are hard. And the research on there between like physical, you know, I think the physical abuse is such a great example because in our talk we reference how there was a big study done that shows that the mental and physical or the mental piece of it can cause more lasting damage in certain situations of high conflict divorce than physical and sexual abuse. But we just don't register it the same. But you you're so right that we would never leave a kid just getting punched or sexually abused in a room with the abuser because we're like, that's too much. Like that would feel so abandoning. So completely agree. And I think that, you know, as men in particular, we are called to lead and to show our kids that we are leaders. And so when they get to the other side, even if they hated you, they're like, oh my gosh, like you fought for me, and that's what I need to do for the people that I love, and I'm gonna do that, and I'm grateful for you, but more so you show me how to be a parent and a kid and just a human being, because if they see people walk away with hard stuff, what are they gonna do when it's hard for them and their kids? So I love that. Yeah, and it makes sense why you do what you do now.
SPEAKER_00:And even if it doesn't register register consciously for a very long time, it does subconsciously for them to where it's gonna be beneficial. Again, our our goal is to raise healthy and functioning children, right? And if you're fighting, even if you're not getting the result that you want, you well, you you are getting the result, even if you're not seeing or experiencing the result that that you want, it is happening because you're doing what you're supposed to be doing. So so yeah, that's yeah, I'm I'm I'm I'm glad you I'm glad you agree with that. It's it's it's really, really tough to to to experience and and deal with for for for the dads that are doing it, but just keep keep fighting. I just want to, if you're experiencing this and you're listening, just keep fighting for your kiddos. I promise it will make a difference in in their lives, whether you live to experience it, whether it comes full circle and you have a relationship, it is gonna make an an impact. So okay, so like I told you, we like we can go really, I can go with you. I wanna I just want to touch on the the program and what you and your mom are doing because this work is remarkable, and and I want everybody's listening to to really listen to to what we're gonna talk about and and the work that that Palmer's doing, and then go to the to the website and and check out the program. So, first, I want to know what was the conversation like uh with your you and your mom when you decided to like go into business together now, like you're all full circle, right? And now it's like, hey, let's start a business together.
SPEAKER_01:Oh my goodness. It was, yeah, I mean, it honestly happened gradually because otherwise I would have been like, what are you talking about? And because we got asked, so someone knew our story and had asked us if he wanted to do a presentation with the Trade Creek School Districts, and we were like, sure, you know, that'd that'd be cool. And so that was what gave birth to what has become now, you know, three years of getting to work together and getting to travel the world, getting to go to speak at conferences and do work that we both have just realized is it's so important. And what we both I think would be happy just to do our own private practices of coaching and therapy, we're like, there is bigger work to be done beyond what is just easy for us. And so that has been the heart behind our work to this day. And so that's what kind of led us to go through a few iterations of what we thought would be the most important things for parents to learn and ended up now with a class that's called Care for the Kids, because so often it's just about the most, you know, the best ways to have communications back and forth post-divorce. And it's all these high-level things that are about the parents and their relationship, which I think are good, of course. But ultimately, if the heart isn't around the kids, how convicted are you really going to be to try to have a decent relationship with your ex? Like if that's the heart behind the course, never gonna do much for you. And so we created a course that we go through, I think we interviewed 18 or 19 different people who are divorced professionals, adult children of divorce, parents of divorce to get to share their perspectives, their advice. And then we go through all of the different bunch of research, but especially the techniques and the things that you can do to help make sure that whether you are part of just a relatively mild divorce or pretty ultra high conflict, there are things in there that will help you be able to make sure that your kids get through the divorce with the least damage possible. If not, research shows that if you do it really well, they can grow, be more resilient than kids that didn't go through divorce in the first place. And so it really can be an amazing opportunity to get to be like, I am giving my kid, I'm not gonna call it a gift because it's definitely not a gift, but I'm giving them the chance to be stronger and better because of this hard thing, and we get to redeem it through our actions and a loving, stable home. And so that's Care for the Kid, which is exactly how it sounds careforthead.com. And for us, we made it because it just is what we wish we had, what my mom wishes that she had, because even as a marriage and family therapist, she just got completely overwhelmed by a lack of knowledge and what to do, what was important, what she should and shouldn't say. And so it's just a hope to get to support parents in that.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, so I've had the pleasure of, like I said, listening and and watching you guys do your presentation. Unbelievably powerful. Like I was just very, very emotionally moved by listening to both of your stories, which then really listening then to you guys talk about these skills was amazing. And now you've put that all into a formalized course, which is, like you said, specific. So it's not just if you're starting out divorce, it's not just if you're in a high conflict divorce. Like these are tools, and I know you've got, I don't know how many modules there there are, but it, but but there's there's there's there's modules, multiple modules, and it and and the the coolest thing, so it takes from your your mom and and to some extent your clinical expertise too, right? Obviously, your mom's been in longer, but and then also the the lived experience. So these are two people from from every perspective that then have created this entire this in entire program that's that that encompasses everything. And and some of it we like like one of the modules is caught in caught in the middle, helping your child navigate parental parental tension, like which is kind of one of the core issues. One of them is keeping your child talking when it matters most. Like these are the topics of of each of these modules. So it is like you said, it's not kind of this high, this high-level stuff, like how do you effectively co-parent and you know, this method, brief informed, like those are all good, right? But this is when when it's brutal. This is when it's brutal and you're going through and you're going through it, and it can help even if it's not brutal, but even but if it is, there's nothing else out there like this, Palmer. Like, I've not seen anything like this from the perspective that you guys are going. This is why I'm so excited to have you on and want you guys to and want you to talk about it. Talk a little so okay, so you were kind of really nice and in in talking about it. I talk about it a little more, man, because this is seriously an amazing program that's that anybody is going through challenges in in divorce with with kiddos has got to get into. Yeah, well, I I love it. I know you're being very humble about it, whatnot. It is it is awesome. It is it is something that is so so needed.
SPEAKER_01:That's that's very sweet. And I one of the things about this work is I really never feel like it's it's from me or come from me or is about me. And I have a hard time talking about the things that I, you know, if we make something, because I just that's not who I am. But it is what it is, a course that I mom, my mom and I spent, I think it was like 20 months, where we would meet for four hours every single week for the first year and then eight hours a week for the second year. And we would just pour in everything we possibly thought we could need. And then we figured out what we needed to put into, I think it's four and a half or five hours in total of what are the most important lessons for parents to hear is everything that we experienced in our own lives from my perspective, from her spec perspective, what the most the cutting edge research shows around the impact as well as the best methods. And essentially, is again, I probably it's one of the easiest ways to spend four and a half hours to make a difference in a kid's life when it comes to divorce. And you know, I'm pretty sure we it costs less than about half of a session with my mom or myself. And so definitely think it is the best thing for your buck when it comes to advice when you're looking to support your kiddos.
SPEAKER_00:So I appreciate it can augment, but but going back to what we talked about, which is if you are the the parent that's being alienated, you need every resource possible. And there are great resources to work on your mental emotional states and and making sure that you're emotionally stable when your kids show up. There, like we said, there's there's stuff on how to to to to communicate with a challenging kid, or or there's love and logic, right? Which I love and it's fast, it's is it's fantastic. It's gonna be it's gonna be difficult to implement with in this, like within this system, right? Like, so there's lots and lots of great, but but but this, you know, not that you shouldn't be doing that, because you should find that, you should do all that work, you should be working hopefully with your coach or your therapist, but then finding this and then working through some of these modules and understanding really from the perspective and the dynamic, taking it full circle to the to the beginning, which is we we don't understand because we we're not having the experience that that the kiddos do, and it's and it and we're in so much pain. So they're in so much pain. We're in so much pain.
SPEAKER_01:And you just started that way. You just said right there. I'm like, it it's so it's so easy to let our own pain be the front runner for attention. And that ends up being one of the single mo and it's one of the things like I it's it's impossible, almost impossible to not have that be a reality because as a human being, we're wired to focus on our own pain. And yet that is what a kid is going to essentially be left in the dust because of like what you just said, I'm like, it's it is so important that we hear from the kids. And that's, I mean, I think there's seven interviews with kids of divorce, getting to talk to all those different pieces and what it feels like and things that they wish their parents had done that they would think would have helped them. And it's it's it's small things. It doesn't even take that much to totally change a kid's experience of divorce. Obviously, it can be hard, but I yeah, that piece of the kids' perspective, and that's my whole thing. That's why I think that it's so, so dang important for people to do that.
SPEAKER_00:And so let's maybe let's wrap up. I mean, I've got like like way more that I want to talk about, but we should we should limit it. And maybe we'll maybe we'll have you come back, or maybe we'll have you and your mom come back and and talk a little bit. I think I think that would be that would be fun, maybe more fun for me than than you to be able to talk with the both of you at the at the same time. And and then and then we can also continue to promote your promote your program so that more and more of the listeners can get involved in it and get this the support that they need. But let's let's um talk uh a little bit about that, what you said of this really is an opportunity. And and and I say that a lot when when we're in group meetings or when I'm doing private coaching with guys, but it's it and that's hard for dads to get their minds around that that it this can be an opportunity for them to exemplify, and it's gonna be exemplifying mostly through modeling, like how you're showing up for for them, and and and and it's not gonna register, you're not gonna get a thank you card from them, right? Like right right away. But you truly, truly can have a huge impact, probably not the the way you wanted to or how you wanted to. You you alluded to to that as as well. And none of us ever got married and fell in love and had kids to then have a disordered partner that's alienating kids or making life hell and and then having all this this pain. But we're we're here now, guys. And in in for whatever reason, divine or like whatever you believe, divine universe, whatever, we're here now. And in in how you show up and what you do in that moment can have uh an impact on that, and it and it actually can be a really, really positive thing.
SPEAKER_01:I yeah, I mean you said it all. I it is you know, I so far the nine months have been a dad, the greatest honor. And I have I was still I'm so worried that I'm gonna mess it up because I no dad ever plans to mess it up or get it wrong. And I think what you're doing is so phenomenal, and it is one of those things that it is so unbelievably important because it'll change a kid's life forever. I mean, the I I I had brought so much research with me that would have been more boring to listen to, but the stats on the research about what a single parent can do, or a parent, you know, even just one parent being stable and consistent, even in a chaotic situation of just divorce as is, alienation, high conflict, it can completely change a kid's life. It can, the research shows there's a Harvard study done that it doubles a kid's chance of having healthy resilience if they have one simple parent through it. It talks about the brain development. Oh, there's so many things. If a dad does a good job showing up, equipping themselves, putting aside their own pride and saying, I want to be the best that I can be for my kids, it will change things forever. And you won't see it for five, 10 years, but you will see a kid that gets to grow up and be happy and have healthy relationships and do the things that you would have hoped for your kid that they get to hold them in your arms and say, Oh my gosh, this is a precious little angel. I'll do anything for you. Like this is the time to actually do that thing where you're doing anything for them, being a part of what you're doing, finding support of any type, getting your kids support. I just, I love it. I love what you're doing. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Well, share a little bit. You shared one of them, but share a little bit because I feel like that is inspirational and gives guys, our us dads, a little bit of hope, knowing that when we're when we're going through it, that hey, this and and because we're we're guys and we process stuff like very linearly and and calculating, share some of those statistics with us as to what the benefits are, what your what your kiddo is going to realize if you do stay in this, if you do show up and if you do fight for them.
SPEAKER_01:Well, I'll kind of read through a couple of my big ones. And then so one of the ones about 75% of children express express distress through behavior rather than words after divorce, acting out, withdrawing, or appearing too mature, which that one is important that kind of goes back to the whole idea of your kids are saying these crazy words of their actions. What they're doing is speaking to the underlying pain that they're experiencing. It's just a good reminder that we need to not focus on that, but focus on what is the actual important part going on. This one I love so much is father involvement matters more than household arrangement, which essentially is saying that some perfect parenting plan that you spend a billion dollars on a PRE, whatever it is to craft it, is going to do nothing compared to you being present, warm, and able to regulate your emotions with your kids. Having one emotionally available parent according to the REACH study at ASU, which is like one of the benchmarked ones for kids' well-being, it shares that having an emotionally available parent can significantly buffer the negative effects of divorce. Children with one attuned, responsive caregiver are 60% more likely to report positive mental health five years later. And these mental health themes will carry through an entire life. They do not just happen for five years and go away. It's like it will change everything. The impact of parents' divorce on kids is 30%, they're about 31% more likely to drop out of high school if they do not have a stable parent in their lives. Children of divorce are two to three times more likely to experience long-term mental health struggles compared to peers from intact families if they do not have a strong, consistent parental father or father figure in their lives. Another one that I always love is yeah, just safe-based parenting. There's another Harvard study at the Developing Child Research Lab where they talk about just being calm, consistent, and emotionally attuned. And I can show it shows, it's been shown to promote healthier brain development, particularly in the regions that are regulate emotion and self-control. So when your kids you get divorced and your kid starts acting out and doing things, whether it's not during homework in or doing drugs, it is their brain's response to an underdeveloped prefrontal cortex with a desire to, you know, regulate stress mixed with the underdeveloped part of their brain, amplified by divorce. And so there's just all these things that it impacts kids so much. And whatever your kid is doing, I promise you, it's not because they're some broken, ruined kid. It's because they are in pain. They don't know what to do. Divorce is not a natural process that we go through. We weren't created to be divorced. I don't believe so. We're could it be a family unit that lasts time and gets to be there consistently for our kids? But there's just so much. One that I love because it's you know what fuels my work is from the ACES study, which again is a huge one for the adverse child experiences. But it talks about having one stable, uncaregiving individual in a kid's life, which can be a teacher, a coach, a therapist, reduces the negative impacts of divorce by up to 50%, having that trusted person who's there. And so that's why, you know, I do my therapy, that's why I do my coaching, because 50% is no joke when it comes to our kids. You know, we we take pills that reduce our risk of heart disease by 12%, let alone things that are 50% for our kids' life. And so, I mean, I have four pages that are kind of my go-to stats that I look at on a weekly basis to inform myself, but we'll we'll pause that because you know we need to get going.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, no, that's that's huge. So, so Palmer, let everybody know how they can access the program. Where do they go to?
SPEAKER_01:to to do that how they can get involved and and also how they can get involved with with uh individual coaching or therapy with with you and your mom i love it so the course itself is called care for the kids and the url is careforthe kid dot com c a r e f o r k i d dot com i can spell and then my personal work is called skineski coaching and therapy which is skineski s k u d n-e-s-k-i c t dot com and if you search Palmer therapy in Colorado there's not many people of that name so it'll pop up but that's to get to do coaching and therapy and so in a lot of many situations I think kids are divorced honestly just need a coach who kind of is that Alex figure to me who is a loving consistent presence who isn't even in the clinical mental health realm but is just a person they get to encourage love on them employing them I would say I have seen such amazing things come from that coach role even though it's not a clinically trained person it's just a person that loves their kid well and is going to show up for them. I've been seeing kiddos for four or five years now and it's just so I'm going to my first kiddo's wedding I'm like it's just so fun. He was 17 when he started now he's getting married like it's so cool. And so whether it's through that or through something else a different program a different person in the kid's life please for all the dads find that person outside of your family outside of you and the wife or whatever the situation is to be in your kids' life to love with them support them whether it's me or you want my help to help you find somebody I I mean that's why I do what I do because I think that every kid deserves that and it's the biggest treat in the world.
SPEAKER_00:But yeah and I'm gonna say make it Palmer go to Palmer go to the go to the program or make it your mom and and and get that help for sure. Palmer thank you so much for being here I sincerely sincerely appreciate it your your your vulnerability and your your openness about your your experience and your story and for for choosing to to do this work. It's something that we were we were talking earlier is there's such a void and and you're trying to fill that as much as you can so it you're truly a blessing and and thanks for sharing with us today.
SPEAKER_01:Thank you so much. Such a treat and you know hopefully the dads in your group get to continue to lean on you because clearly you we got a pretty good read on what it's like to be in the situation that these dads are going through. So thank you so much for that chance to get to talk to them. Google for what you're doing and it was such a pleasure to get to chat take care. Thank you
